Live data from Hacker News

Why friction is necessary for growth

jameelur.com

51–60 of 86 posts

Re: Why friction is necessary for growth

#51
post #10

It is even more worrying that what is defined here as "growth", and in other contexts can be interpreted as "quality", when absent or reduced, leads to a vicious cycle of ever-decreasing quality over time. Contemporary novels, especially those depicting modern times, are mostly terrible. I recently read a review of one such modern novel in the Financial Times—-the review was very promising—-and decided to buy and rea…

I always say that time is the best filter.

In the moment, you can be easily mistaken that something is good, or the best even if the marketing team of that something is really going hard at your wallet. But the only way, and they know it too well, to assess quality is to simply...wait and see later.

If you need a proof, here's one : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookshop_Memories The "it was better before" is not a recent phenomenon, I think.

Re: Why friction is necessary for growth

#52
post #46
post #38

Can I make a distinction between "friction" and "effort"? If you're riding a bike up a hill, you can't go up without effort. But not all of your effort is actually moving you up the hill -- some of it is being lost in friction: inefficiencies in your muscles, friction in your gears and wheel and chain, wind resistance. Similarly, you can't learn anything without effort; but it's often the case that effort you put in…

I never considered the type of effort you're referring to as wasted. It reminds me a bit of looking up coding solutions on StackOverflow back in the day. Yes, it was a slog and consumed valuable time. However, I always felt that I picked up all sorts of other valuable information reading a variety of possible solutions or spying a related but different problem and taking a moment to consider it. It is similar to how…

Learning in such a random fashion is entertaining, but not particularly productive.

Right now you could open a random Wikipedia article, study it and click random again, clearly there’s better options. SO wasn’t quite that bad as it was more constrained, but you still didn’t do it without external pressure to find something.

Re: Why friction is necessary for growth

#53
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never considered the type of effort you're referring to as wasted. It reminds me a bit of looking up coding solutions on StackOverflow back in the day. Yes, it was a slog and consumed valuable time. However, I always felt that I picked up all sorts of other valuable information reading a variety of possible solutions or spying a related but different problem and taking a moment to consider it. It is similar to how…

This is a good callout/distinction you're making. How we view the goal of the experience determines our experience itself. The guitar analogy is really good because if your goal was to learn guitar, it's definitely not wasted but if your goal was to learn this one specific song as quickly as possible, I could see how my perspective would be different.

Yes, this is all goal dependent. I can agree with that.

The trouble with the "learn just this one thing" approach is that one is forced to learn said thing at the most basic level because anything beyond that requires all sorts of skills and techniques that are difficult to teach in lesson format. Rather, they're just absorbed as one explores the topic. It's the sort of subconscious / muscle memory stuff a person doesn't even realize they're learning.

So, yes, for the most basic of topics, I can see how removing the effort can make sense. For anything beyond that I feel there is tremendous value in the struggle.

Re: Why friction is necessary for growth

#54
post #38

Can I make a distinction between "friction" and "effort"? If you're riding a bike up a hill, you can't go up without effort. But not all of your effort is actually moving you up the hill -- some of it is being lost in friction: inefficiencies in your muscles, friction in your gears and wheel and chain, wind resistance. Similarly, you can't learn anything without effort; but it's often the case that effort you put in…

Not sure how it translates outside of the physics space, but I'm pretty sure if one is trying to go up a hill, more friction would equal less effort. Because if there's less friction, then I think I would fight more against gravity?

For example, I'm thinking of trying to drive a car uphill on ice and the way to do it is to add more friction by making the tires more grippy.

Now, maybe where the friction is matters. If it's between the tire and road, perhaps it reduces effort, but if in the engine pistons, maybe it increases effort.

Actually makes me think about how too little friction or too much friction can cause problems, just like too little stability or too much stability, or too little mobility or too much mobility can cause problems in our joints.

Re: Why friction is necessary for growth

#55
post #38

Can I make a distinction between "friction" and "effort"? If you're riding a bike up a hill, you can't go up without effort. But not all of your effort is actually moving you up the hill -- some of it is being lost in friction: inefficiencies in your muscles, friction in your gears and wheel and chain, wind resistance. Similarly, you can't learn anything without effort; but it's often the case that effort you put in…

You articulated it better than I was going to.

In the early 2000s I worked moving furniture for a few years and one of the guys had a saying "you build up your muscles, you tear down your joints" which I found to be true. Stimulus builds strength, but overuse builds weakness.

Sadly in today's world, we have people in positions of wealth and power who perceive work as easy. Meanwhile people who are actually doing the work that affluent people view as beneath them, are slowly declining.

AKA the glorification of work, working class hero mentality, etc, that seduce people into a life of servitude.

-

IMHO this is causing the class division that's destroying the middle class. Soon there will only be lords who disdain work while touting its virtues, and serfs who are forced to work and be talked at under neofeudalism.

This is why I feel that the wrong people are in power, and have always been in power. The tension is about to reach a breaking point in the 2026 US election. We have the rise of AI and likely AGI in 10 years or less, coinciding with the rise of global authoritarianism, austerity and the shredding of social safety nets. Things could get ugly at a level we haven't witnessed since WWII.

What nobody seems to realize is that AI will level everything. Talent. Experience. Wealth. Class will become situational, performative. Based on luck even more than it is now. Maybe looking something like The Hunger Games.

I would propose that knowing this, we start taking action now to avoid the eventualities of the current timeline. For example, we could form a co-equal branch of government composed of people drawn by lottery (to offset the arbitrary concentration of influence) otherwise known as sortition:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

I first mentioned it a month ago but it bears repeating. Although it's unlikely that anything like this will happen at a national level in any country.

Short of that, we should consider workplace equality. Where every employee has a vote, just like shareholders. Corporate charters should have the board defer to employees in the case of a tie. Another way to do it is to have the board be 50% labor, like in Germany for companies over 2,000 employees.

TL;DR: if we want to maximize leverage while reducing friction so that everyone has the opportunity to self-actualize, then we should be wary of moral imperatives handed down from the upper class and internalized by the working class.

Re: Why friction is necessary for growth

#56
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its "product recommendation" capabilities are growing quickly, which is directly convertible to ad revenue, and we know ad revenue sustained Google for two decades.

It'd be very fun and ironic if all this research, turmoil and energy waste just boiled down to a "better ad machine". I'm aware of other applications of AI and LLMs, but what most of the people see are the consumer facing ones like ChatGPT/Gemini/etc.

It’s like nuclear fusion. The power of the sun, to boil water.

Re: Why friction is necessary for growth

#57

> Overcoming friction leads to growth. Comfort leads to stagnation.... I’ve come to believe that with the rise of convenience and comfort, it becomes harder for us to reach our potential.... A certain level of convenience can lead to efficiency gains. Automation is important for a reason. Too much convenience though, that's a killer. When friction was inherent in the system, applying ourselves led to growth as we ove…

> In a world where one could snap their fingers and magically have everything, would "growth" be impossible?

Think this one through. Would growth even make sense ? What would be the meaning of getting everything you want ? Would such a life be worth it ?

If you ask me, I'd say that such a life would have no meaning for anyone involved and as such, maybe the universe would not even care to have that experience. I don't know, just spitballing there !

Re: Why friction is necessary for growth

#58
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its "product recommendation" capabilities are growing quickly, which is directly convertible to ad revenue, and we know ad revenue sustained Google for two decades.

It'd be very fun and ironic if all this research, turmoil and energy waste just boiled down to a "better ad machine". I'm aware of other applications of AI and LLMs, but what most of the people see are the consumer facing ones like ChatGPT/Gemini/etc.

The Internet is funded almost entirely by an ad machine, but has a few knock-on benefits people have grown rather fond of.

Re: Why friction is necessary for growth

#59
post #38

Can I make a distinction between "friction" and "effort"? If you're riding a bike up a hill, you can't go up without effort. But not all of your effort is actually moving you up the hill -- some of it is being lost in friction: inefficiencies in your muscles, friction in your gears and wheel and chain, wind resistance. Similarly, you can't learn anything without effort; but it's often the case that effort you put in…

In a friction-less environment, effort produces no progress. Thank you for coming to my HN rebuttal.

All analogies are wrong, but some are useful.

Post reply on HN