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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

metalhearf.fr

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#51

Post by fsckboy »

_cenw wrote: post #10
NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't constitution easily changed by parlament?

Usually not "easily". I know Germany requires 2/3 majority.

fwiw, amending the US constitution generally requires a 2/3 majority in both houses of congress to propose the amendment, and then further ratification by 3/4 of the states make the amendment law. it's a fairly long process, and amendments sometime get bogged down and die in the 2nd phase.

(there is another process which calls for a convention, but such a convention would have broad powers to change many things and so far the "two sides" (US rules tilt toward two parties rather than more) have been too scared of what might happen to do that)

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#52

Post by __loam »

walterbell wrote: post #28
daemin wrote: post #11

I was just thinking that if something like this ever does get through and become law, then creating open-source alternatives which do not obey these laws would be quite trivial. What would not be trivial would be deciding where to host the servers and source code, and how to actually get this software onto people's devices. What country would be safe for hosting code that does this that people would also trust in gen…

EU CRA disallows shipment of non-accredited binaries in "critical" software categories.

Okay so are they going to block foreign github repos? This seems totally unenforceable.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#53

Post by mapontosevenths »

gmuslera wrote: post #19
haolez wrote: post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

If only we could show them how this kind of things may go wrong. I don't know, the case of some leader of a nation they are having trouble with, abusing of a similar access with their data. But they will probably think that is only bad when others do it to them.

> If only we could show them how this kind of things may go wrong.

We can. This has already happened with the fairly recent SALT TYPHOON hacks. China (ostensibly) abused lawful wiretapping mechanisms to spy on American (and other) citizens and politicians. The news at the time wasn't always explicit about the mechanism, but that's what happened.

China wouldn't have been able to do this if those mechanisms didn't exist in the first place.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#54

Post by iLoveOncall »

delusional wrote: post #46
haolez wrote: post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

> prevent them from being pushed over and over Solve the problem it's trying to solve, then it won't be proposed again.

The problem it's trying to solve is mass surveillance...

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#55

Post by nathan_compton »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #12
haolez wrote: post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

There are no solutions to that which wouldn't sound absurd. But if you could get past absurdity... Politicians should agree to to be executed if they lose an election. Only those willing to risk their lives should be allowed to legislate. This also gives the voters the option of punishing those who pass onerous laws at the next election. If you need extra zing, this would also apply to recall elections, so they could…

I think it would be better if they agree to be executed if they win the election, after serving their term.

Maybe a less extreme version of this is that if you become president you are stripped of all property and become the ward of the state after your term is over, enter a monastery sort of situation, for the rest of your life.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#57

Post by naijaboiler »

mtillman wrote: post #9
haolez wrote: post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

I'm convinced the people suggesting this type of thing are influenced or even compromised by their constituent's enemies and NOT the result of poor education on the topic. This policy for example would be most helpful to enemies to the EU. It would lower the cost of acquiring the data for China and Russia as it allows them to mass acquire data in transmission without incurring the cost of local operations. The easies…

you have left out how it can be used to monitor violation of corporate copyright materials. And what it means for silencing political speech is enormous.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#58

Post by mapontosevenths »

quotemstr wrote: post #30
thinkingtoilet wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. In this case, there needs to be some sort of 'privacy bill of rights'. Something fundamental where any law like this cannot be passed.

Laws don't stop men with guns. Men with guns stop men with guns. Laws not enforced and rights not protected don't matter. As the old saying goes, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

> Laws don't stop men with guns. Men with guns stop men with guns.

Prove it. Every statistic I've ever seen shows the exact opposite of this to be true.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#59

Post by fsckboy »

quotemstr wrote: post #40
fsckboy wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think making your argument on free speech grounds would be stronger

How so? My point is that US constitutional protections on firearm ownership have undeniably eroded. The presence of text on the page did not prevent this erosion. I'm using gun rights as an example of a situation in which text granting a right becomes irrelevant if people stop believing in the values behind the text. People do believe in freedom of speech in the US, thankfully, even if they've stopped defending gun r…

when you are talking to a european audience, they tend to be in favor of gun control so they don't care about erosion of those rights (like the people in the US who also favor eroding them, wording of the rules be damned)

HN is to a large extent a popularity contest, and people here are more in favor of free speech than guns. the US record on protecting free speech is very good.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#60

Post by chmod775 »

zamadatix wrote: post #42
okanat wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU has the Charter of Fundamental rights which is a part of the Treaty of Lisbon which is the constitutional basis of EU: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_Fundamental_Right... In the charter, the protection of personal data and privacy is a recognized right. So chat control is also probably against the EU law.

I'm not familiar with EU law, but reading Title II article 7 and 8 makes me feel this could be an optimistic interpretation of what the Treaty of Lisbon guarantees. I'm sure the supporters of chat control would love to argue something like "ChatControl respects the private communications of an individual by protecting how the data is processed to ensure only the legitimate basis of processing the data is incurred by…

Even the EU council's legal service thinks the law as-proposed is probably incompatible with Article 7 and 8:

> The CLS concludes that, in the light of the case law of the Court of Justice at this stage, the regime of the detection order, as currently provided for by the proposed Regulation with regard to interpersonal communications, constitutes a particularly serious limitation to the rights to privacy and personal data protection enshrined in Article 7 and 8 of the Charter.

https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-8787-2023-I...

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