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How can I influence others without manipulating them?

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Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#51

Post by oddmade »

c-suite person here...my job is "influence to empower" my team and others - to unlock opportunity for the company I represent.

My advice would be: Stay honest with yourself. To influence IS to manipulate.

Playing squeamish is a slippery slope into avoiding accountability for your actions.

In other words - don't judge the tools - judge your motives and the outcome.

Accept there is always a trade and balance.

If you can be honest about your motives and actions with yourself your friends and colleagues - chances are that you can achieve your goals with ethics and empathy intact.

If you can't, then it's time to take a look at yourself - not the tools.

Good luck

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#52

Post by dijit »

voxl wrote: post #35
dsubburam wrote: post #9

Persuasion that happens in good faith is a two-way street. You explain your position, but also truly listen to theirs. If you are prepared to change your own position based on what they say, then you can hope that they might change theirs based on what you say. If it is truly two way in this sense, including your best efforts to extract from the other party their strongest, potentially unexpected, arguments for their…

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

You’re being downvoted by idealists.

I was an idealist, so I understand the position.

Ideally, you explain your position and they explain theirs and it’s an open dialogue. Truthfully, you could be wrong about any number of things you have resolute conviction about- even things you believe are well evidenced.

The cynic in me is aware that actually us as individuals have finite time and mental energy to keep debating things which are base, and our lives are improved by just accepting some base assumptions and engaging our energy at higher levels instead of litigating the basics.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#53

Post by nothrabannosir »

chucksmash wrote: post #24
Nevermark wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed Well, yes there is. In fact, that is the central problem of unresolvable divisions. People implicitly making themselves "the decider" by imagining their principles are so great as to preclude any need for revision. (Faith in the primacy of one's beliefs, is inherently the same as faith in one's own primacy to choose beliefs.) There is…

That's all well and good, but when you have to put your trust in someone and person A believes "it's wrong to cheat people" and person B has a whole framework for thinking about the problem on a case by case basis, you just go with A, right?

The older I get the more I hear the exact opposite of what people say when they claim anything absolute about themselves. It's working out well.

"I'm an empath." "I don't like drama." "I never cheat people." "I value honesty."

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#55

Post by dijit »

motorest wrote: post #43
twodave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…

> This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. No, it is not the definition of integrity. If you opt to double-down on positions you held in spite of being presented to evidence that contradicts or refutes your prior beliefs, the behavior you are displaying is opposite of integrity, s…

having integrity: “murder is bad, even if it’s someone i disagree with (tho isn’t murdering)”

lack of integrity: “EU bad, even if you give me evidence to say that it’s the UK’s own politicians that have screwed us for decades.. not the EU necessarily”

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#56

Post by Nevermark »

naasking wrote: post #40
komali2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like people who make such blanket value statements like "I don't cheat people" or "I don't lie" aren't being honest with themselves, or are putting too much faith in the stability of the society they live in. The easiest retort is Anne Frank. You're hiding her in your attic and a Nazi asks if you're hiding enemies of the state. There you go, a time when you'll definitely lie and cheat! Someone might answer, "w…

> There you go, a time when you'll definitely lie and cheat! I don't think this is the win you think it is. Kantians and se deontologists will absolutely say that no, you cannot lie and cheat even in that scenario. You have a moral duty to not lie but also a moral duty to resist tyranny. You cannot sacrifice one to achieve the other, you must choose only options that fulfill both duties.

> You have a moral duty to not lie but also a moral duty to resist tyranny. You cannot sacrifice one to achieve the other, you must choose only options that fulfill both duties.

The universe doesn't respect that viewpoint. There is no mechanism in reality or life that prevents hard tradeoffs from having to be made.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#57

Post by [deleted] »

trjordan wrote: post #18

This is a very HN sort of sentiment. How can I be persuasive without being gross? I had a bit of a moment when I first became a PM. (I've done a bunch of things, engineering / sales / founding, but PM only sort of recently.) I realized that my job was to wake up in the morning and pick fights. Or more diplomatically: to tell people they were doing the wrong thing, and they should be doing a different thing, in a way…

[deleted]

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#58

Post by vdqtp3 »

motorest wrote: post #43
twodave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…

> This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. No, it is not the definition of integrity. If you opt to double-down on positions you held in spite of being presented to evidence that contradicts or refutes your prior beliefs, the behavior you are displaying is opposite of integrity, s…

Rape is wrong. It doesn't matter what your evidence or positions or logic are, you will not sway me on that point. I suspect that sort of thing is what GP meant.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#59

Post by brabel »

vdqtp3 wrote: post #58
motorest wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. No, it is not the definition of integrity. If you opt to double-down on positions you held in spite of being presented to evidence that contradicts or refutes your prior beliefs, the behavior you are displaying is opposite of integrity, s…

Rape is wrong. It doesn't matter what your evidence or positions or logic are, you will not sway me on that point. I suspect that sort of thing is what GP meant.

But that clearly falls within the parent comment’s definition. Just because you are prepared to change your opinion on something based on evidence to the contrary, it doesn’t mean such evidence exists or may even be possible! I am of the opinion that the Earth is not flat. And I know that no evidence you can present would ever change that because it’s patently obvious that’s the case given the evidence I already have! But I am still theoretically open to a debate. That’s the scientific method.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#60

Post by b_e_n_t_o_n »

dijit wrote: post #52
voxl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

You’re being downvoted by idealists. I was an idealist, so I understand the position. Ideally, you explain your position and they explain theirs and it’s an open dialogue. Truthfully, you could be wrong about any number of things you have resolute conviction about- even things you believe are well evidenced. The cynic in me is aware that actually us as individuals have finite time and mental energy to keep debating t…

We don't even really have time or energy to debate the higher levels with other people. Maybe if it's a friend or family or someone you're close with. But arguing with strangers, at least imo, is a total waste of time most of the time.

Just nod and smile :)

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