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Should we drain the Everglades?

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Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even putting aside that it destroys incredible natural beauty for land that's not even productively useful, it astounds me that people still buy into major terraforming projects. Every single time it's had absolutely horrendous consequences often with millions of human deaths attached. Don't make large changes to chaotic systems!

>Even putting aside that it destroys incredible natural beauty for land that's not even productively useful, it astounds me that people still buy into major terraforming projects. Every single time it's had absolutely horrendous consequences often with millions of human deaths attached. Don't make large changes to chaotic systems! Ah, yes, terrible consequences, such as, the irrigation and suitability for farmland of…

It does not take much familiarity with the history of Mississippi flood control and the Army Corps of Engineers to realize how risky, fraught, and short-sighted the whole project has been. The delta's dying and the Old River Control Structure is one bad day away from diverting the entire river to the Atchafalaya.

_The Great River_ by Boyce Upholt from last year is a good place to start learning about the Mississippi.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#52

One thing I don’t understand is why so many appreciate the Everglades. To me a landscape infested with aggressive animals (gators) doesn’t sound attractive or safe. Between them and the invasive snakes I feel like you would need to be on guard all the time. Maybe drain it, replace it with different animals that are friendly, and then refill it. I’m only sort of joking.

Alligators are the exact opposite of aggressive. If you walk up and pat one on the head it'll probably just hiss and start slinking away at the speed of syrup. You should be more afraid of the spiders and blood-sucking insects.

I do not think that a 12' gator is going to appreciate you patting it on the head. And for short distances, they can outrun a human. That said I am a 3rd generation S. Floridian who grew up 50 years ago swimming and water skiing in the canals along what was then two-lane Highway 84, out west of Plantation, nothing much else there. Never had a problem, but the big ones got shot, officially or not.

Fun story: I was slaloming bank to bank down that canal and wiped out. The canal is narrow enough the boat has to slow down and idle around the u-turn to then plane up to get back, so it takes a bit. There was a high arched water pipe over the canal and a kid parked on the apex. Kid sez, there's a gator next to you. I said, sure, right kid. Kid sez, there's a gator next to you... and I look and yep, maybe a 6', 7' gator about 10' away. Well... not much to do... I started waving the ski and a couple of minutes later they throw me the rope and I orientated and up and away I went. ha haha. Good times. I think I was 15.

Another one: Buddy of mine is on two skis and is kinda mellowing out just running down that same canal and I'm driving and see a gator ahead in the middle of the canal, and why not, I steer around the gator and then steer him right over it and it explodes in a huge splash ha aha haar I am just laughing at the memory and he looks back and then back at me with a big shit eating grin. I was probably 16.

Same canal: I got this hot gf I'm trying to teach to ski and she's fiddling with the skis, as you do starting out, and a nice 5' tarpon rolls about 6' away from her. Panic! We're like no no no they do not bite, it's just a tarpon, they're friendlies! Oh well, no water skiing for her. I was... 17.

But I'm not here to tell you these stories. I'm here to talk about the river of grass, the Everglades. Many millions have lived around the periphery but you can look at maps and see it's a long way across with "nothing" there. How would you see the vast scope of the interior, in an efficient way, right down at water level?

Family 2 doors over in Melaleuca Isles (still exists, I see) the father was the district superintendent (I think) for the Florida Fish & Game Commission, or whatever it's called these days. In those days the US was a normal country and everybody hung out, the kids, the parents. So I'm over there in the morning and he says want to go on patrol. I say sure. So we drive the airboat out to the launch point on 84 (Alligator Alley) and off we go. This thing had a Lycoming flat six and there's not much to the boat but the Al flat hull, the two tier seats, and the enormous engine and propeller. And for 5 hours, at speeds peaking at 100mph[1], we criss cross the entire sector of the Everglades north of Hghwy 84. I stopped counting deer in the sawgrass in the water at 100. The vistas were of an endless prairie of sawgrass. He drove across the hammocks where there was grass by just powering the boat onto the land and then over.

I came away from that experience with a full appreciation of the scope of the Everglades, the idea of it, and am sad that the idea of wilderness has softened like melting fat into an ideal of a cozy unthreatening warm bath. There is nothing that can be accurately described as wilderness unless organisms endemic there are present and may be out to eat you. Starting with mosquitos and ending with alligators.

[1] In those medieval times we did not know nor understand the term "eye protection" and so I had none, though my neighbor did. He didn't care. At 100mph your face is quite distorted. Some debris is getting through the screen on the front of the boat. What a MF adventure.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#53

One thing I don’t understand is why so many appreciate the Everglades. To me a landscape infested with aggressive animals (gators) doesn’t sound attractive or safe. Between them and the invasive snakes I feel like you would need to be on guard all the time. Maybe drain it, replace it with different animals that are friendly, and then refill it. I’m only sort of joking.

You'd make a terrible wildlife biologist.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even putting aside that it destroys incredible natural beauty for land that's not even productively useful, it astounds me that people still buy into major terraforming projects. Every single time it's had absolutely horrendous consequences often with millions of human deaths attached. Don't make large changes to chaotic systems!

>Even putting aside that it destroys incredible natural beauty for land that's not even productively useful, it astounds me that people still buy into major terraforming projects. Every single time it's had absolutely horrendous consequences often with millions of human deaths attached. Don't make large changes to chaotic systems! Ah, yes, terrible consequences, such as, the irrigation and suitability for farmland of…

> the irrigation and suitability for farmland of central California

The unsustainable irrigation that's draining aquifers during droughts and causing permanent damage[1] to groundwater retention? The irrigation that's causing changes in land topography[2]?

> the lack of frequent flooding of the Mississippi river

You mean the system which is a well known ecological disaster?[3][4][5]

And no frequent flooding? Since 2017, the Mississippi River Corridor Critical Area (which covers only a small portion of the watershed) has seen the USDA pay out $11.4 billion[6] to cover damages from flooding. I live in the watershed and for most of the summer I get flood alerts every time it rains. Damages are on the news constantly. In 2008, a tributary river flooded so badly it destroyed two mid-sized cities in Iowa[7]. Then you have the the 2011 flooding[8] of the Mississippi which was the most disastrous since before most modifications had been made to the river. Lack of frequent flooding? Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it's not happening.

Like what are we talking about here? Even reaching for what you assume to be innocuous examples, empirically observable negative consequences hang off of them like fruiting bodies. Who knows what the consequences will look like in 100-200 years when they've had time to iteratively feed back into themselves.

[1] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30197456/

[2] - https://www.usgs.gov/centers/land-subsidence-in-california

[3] - https://repository.lsu.edu/geo_pubs/2126/

[4] - https://repository.lsu.edu/geo_pubs/1614/

[5] - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/03/230306143336.h...

[6] - https://www.ewg.org/research/usda-policies-fall-short-helpin...

[7] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_flood_of_2008

[8] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Mississippi_River_floods

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#56

Halfway in I realized the author is just narrating the Wikipedia article. If you'd rather just read it without the attempts to be funny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draining_and_development_of_th...

Yea, so here's the tl;dr history in the article:

1. The author, who actually cribbed from wikipedia, gets the willies when he sees shallow water infested with tens of thousands of perfectly happy alligators. All he thinks is that amazing commerce will happen when he kills all the kind gators, flushes the state, and runs away before the next time it rains.

2. Everyone throughout history has wanted to Drain The Swamp. Every one of those amazing historical people has seemed perfectly reasonable and without a doubt was an incredibly towering bastion of science who wanted to drain the Everglades. Too bad they were all incompetent.

3. Please leave Florida Man and Gator Lake alone. They separate the Gulf of America on the West from the Sea of Florida on the East.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#57

As a Pasco county alumni, I think we should drop the people who want to drain the everglades off in the everglades and leave them in there until they gain an appreciation for the scenery.

We ought to balance it out by doing something comparable to the people who simp for heavy handed regulations in areas that have already been build up and altered greatly by humans.

It’s true. I was more expressing a sentiment than suggesting a course of political or legislative action. I await my punishment.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#58
post #9

Halfway in I realized the author is just narrating the Wikipedia article. If you'd rather just read it without the attempts to be funny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draining_and_development_of_th...

Wish I noticed before submitting, I would have just shared that instead. Oh well. Thanks.

No, this was much more entertaining to read.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#59
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leeches freak me out, I can't imagine swimming with (or falling on) the gators!

Why? That's like being afraid of mosquitoes. You can't even really feel a leech.

I’ve been in clouds of mosquitos so thick they cover you in black when you sit down. They land in your food and try to eat it. I could understand being afraid of them having seen that buzzing miasma bearing down at all times, relentless for a drop of blood.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#60

Speaking of the uncanny feeling of shallow water, there are parts of the Florida keys where you can paddle a kayak a good half a mile from shore and still be in 2-4 ft of water. It's a great place to learn a new watersport as if you fall in you can just stand up.

Leeches freak me out, I can't imagine swimming with (or falling on) the gators!

Leeches are ubiquitous in North America, though I've seen more of them east of the Rocky Mountains. Most freshwater streams and lakes probably have some.

I understand the psychological aspect but they are otherwise totally harmless.

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