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How often do health insurers say no to patients? (2023)

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Re: How often do health insurers say no to patients? (2023)

#51

Post by scoopdewoop »

kstrauser wrote: post #40
danaris wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accused shooter. Firstly, Luigi Mangione is presumed innocent until proven guilty . Secondly, there's a fair amount of real evidence that Luigi is being set up as a scapegoat by the NYPD—a police department with a known history of planted evidence.

First part: yes, definitely. That’s a critical part of how the system works. Second part: I’m not buying that for a moment. It’s way easier for me to believe that an individual working alone, screwed over by a megacorp who earns more based on how many people they can deny healthcare to, had enough and went vigilante. Vigilanteism and cold blooded murder are not OK, but it’s pretty easy to link cause and effect there.…

Honest question, why isn't vigilantism okay?

What are people supposed to do? Vote? We voted for the public healthcare guy in 2008 and the powers-that-be decided they would rather back "muslim ban" demagogues than let that happen again.

I get this is your corporate-facing persona so you could never actually speak critically to this point, but the health insurance industry broke democracy, and eventually they'll find out what the alternative is.

Re: How often do health insurers say no to patients? (2023)

#52

Post by mattnewton »

arwhatever wrote: post #36
mattnewton wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't think #1 is possible, how can you have a functioning marketplace for a good when the demand is hard to forecast for an individual, almost completely inelastic and often extremely time sensitive. I'd say the US really tried and the incentives just aren't there for a stable system.

When did the U.S. really try?

Isn’t this just a no true Scotsman? The US claims at least to have built a free market solution, and if nobody else has been able to make it work at scale, why isn’t that enough.

Re: How often do health insurers say no to patients? (2023)

#53

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

arwhatever wrote: post #32
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can we have a competitive marketplace? I’m not a doctor (and therefore cannot informed evaluate the services) and even if I was I can’t search for my preferred cardiologist when I’m having a heart attack.

Is all of your healthcare 100% heart attacks?

But again I don’t have enough education to judge if my doctor is yanking my chain.

Re: How often do health insurers say no to patients? (2023)

#54

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

scoopdewoop wrote: post #51
kstrauser wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First part: yes, definitely. That’s a critical part of how the system works. Second part: I’m not buying that for a moment. It’s way easier for me to believe that an individual working alone, screwed over by a megacorp who earns more based on how many people they can deny healthcare to, had enough and went vigilante. Vigilanteism and cold blooded murder are not OK, but it’s pretty easy to link cause and effect there.…

Honest question, why isn't vigilantism okay? What are people supposed to do? Vote? We voted for the public healthcare guy in 2008 and the powers-that-be decided they would rather back "muslim ban" demagogues than let that happen again. I get this is your corporate-facing persona so you could never actually speak critically to this point, but the health insurance industry broke democracy, and eventually they'll find o…

Vigilantism isn't okay because your perception that all would-be vigilantes agree with your politics is terribly mistaken. Many of the people who voted with us for the public healthcare guy in 2008 are now on the side of the "muslim ban" demagogues.

Re: How often do health insurers say no to patients? (2023)

#55

Post by kstrauser »

scoopdewoop wrote: post #51
kstrauser wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First part: yes, definitely. That’s a critical part of how the system works. Second part: I’m not buying that for a moment. It’s way easier for me to believe that an individual working alone, screwed over by a megacorp who earns more based on how many people they can deny healthcare to, had enough and went vigilante. Vigilanteism and cold blooded murder are not OK, but it’s pretty easy to link cause and effect there.…

Honest question, why isn't vigilantism okay? What are people supposed to do? Vote? We voted for the public healthcare guy in 2008 and the powers-that-be decided they would rather back "muslim ban" demagogues than let that happen again. I get this is your corporate-facing persona so you could never actually speak critically to this point, but the health insurance industry broke democracy, and eventually they'll find o…

I think you’re right about the FAFO bit. I suspect Mangione will end up being simply the first. I mean that as a prediction, not an endorsement. Anyone who’s studied the French Revolution knows how these things can turn out, for many the same reasons.

But I’ll almost always be against vigilanteism outside extreme hypotheticals (“would you shoot Hitler?”). Even if I were morally ok with a specific instance, some time the person behind the gun might disagree with someone I support, and then where’s my moral ground to oppose their actions?

Edit: Furthermore, as much as I despise UHC and their leadership, I love the notion of our justice system more than I loathe them. When someone decides to be the judge and executioner, society devolves to “might makes right”. I served in Somalia. I don’t want to live there.

Re: How often do health insurers say no to patients? (2023)

#56

Post by danaris »

kstrauser wrote: post #40
danaris wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accused shooter. Firstly, Luigi Mangione is presumed innocent until proven guilty . Secondly, there's a fair amount of real evidence that Luigi is being set up as a scapegoat by the NYPD—a police department with a known history of planted evidence.

First part: yes, definitely. That’s a critical part of how the system works. Second part: I’m not buying that for a moment. It’s way easier for me to believe that an individual working alone, screwed over by a megacorp who earns more based on how many people they can deny healthcare to, had enough and went vigilante. Vigilanteism and cold blooded murder are not OK, but it’s pretty easy to link cause and effect there.…

> It’s way easier for me to believe that an individual working alone, screwed over by a megacorp who earns more based on how many people they can deny healthcare to, had enough and went vigilante.

This does not contradict what I said.

I make no claims about just who or what the actual shooter was. I merely claim that it almost certainly wasn't Luigi Mangione.

Re: How often do health insurers say no to patients? (2023)

#57

Post by eviks »

mattnewton wrote: post #52
arwhatever wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did the U.S. really try?

Isn’t this just a no true Scotsman? The US claims at least to have built a free market solution, and if nobody else has been able to make it work at scale, why isn’t that enough.

> why isn’t that enough.

Because why would you ever only rely on some vague "US claims" instead of looking at reality?

Re: How often do health insurers say no to patients? (2023)

#58

Post by eviks »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #31
arwhatever wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. A properly competitive marketplace 2. Socialized medicine 3. What we have now I would like to see #1 tried but at this point I’ll gladly accept #2

How can we have a competitive marketplace? I’m not a doctor (and therefore cannot informed evaluate the services) and even if I was I can’t search for my preferred cardiologist when I’m having a heart attack.

You're not a mechanic, how can you evaluate the services be certain that they didn't oil your breaks instead of your engine?

> can’t search for my preferred cardiologist when I’m having a heart attack.

You can't search for your preferred mechanics when your breaks failed on a highway.

Yet somehow that didn't kill the competitive marketplace.

Re: How often do health insurers say no to patients? (2023)

#60

Post by scoopdewoop »

kstrauser wrote: post #55
scoopdewoop wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, why isn't vigilantism okay? What are people supposed to do? Vote? We voted for the public healthcare guy in 2008 and the powers-that-be decided they would rather back "muslim ban" demagogues than let that happen again. I get this is your corporate-facing persona so you could never actually speak critically to this point, but the health insurance industry broke democracy, and eventually they'll find o…

I think you’re right about the FAFO bit. I suspect Mangione will end up being simply the first. I mean that as a prediction, not an endorsement. Anyone who’s studied the French Revolution knows how these things can turn out, for many the same reasons. But I’ll almost always be against vigilanteism outside extreme hypotheticals (“would you shoot Hitler?”). Even if I were morally ok with a specific instance, some time…

Well said, I see where you are coming from.
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