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Étoilé – desktop built on GNUStep

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Re: Étoilé – desktop built on GNUStep

#51
post #41
post #11

Étoilé was so promising….the idea of using OpenStep (via GNUstep) infrastructure in ways that went beyond NeXTstep or Mac OS X. It felt like an even deeper embrace of the Smalltalk influences of the OpenStep API to enhance the desktop computing experience. Étoilé wasn’t merely a clone of NeXTstep or Mac OS X; it was its own thing that could’ve been a compelling contender to KDE, GNOME, and even macOS. Unfortunately É…

> Apple seems to be abandoning its Xerox PARC influences as the old guard retires and passes away (RIP Steve Jobs, Larry Tesler, and Bill Atkinson) Haven't those people not had any influence on Apple for a very long time now? Steve has been dead for 15 years, Larry & Bill last worked there ~ 30 years ago. There's definitely been a "change of the guard" at Apple, but it's not from Xerox PARC people...

Yep, the comment you're replying to is off by a few decades

Re: Étoilé – desktop built on GNUStep

#52

It makes me glad to see Etoile is still around. I played around with it in HS when it was in it's alpha stages because I wanted to find a Linux distro that had the same polish of MacOS X and on which I could dev Obj-C. It was a good attempt, but sadly I haven't seen any Linux skin or distro that has solved the UX polish issue. Edit: never mind, Étoilé did die around the time I thought it did in the early 2010s.

What are your gripes with Elementary? I personally use KDE now, but I used to use Elementary a while ago, and it was very polished

I used it in an old EEE PC laptop because of its lower resource usage compared with Ubuntu.

Elementary is (or was at the time of testing) wasteful of screen real state, there are huge spacers on the toolbars and in a low resolution screen it's just ridiculous.

It could look good and also have sensible design. It only looked good and had IMHO bad design.

Re: Étoilé – desktop built on GNUStep

#53
post #11

Étoilé was so promising….the idea of using OpenStep (via GNUstep) infrastructure in ways that went beyond NeXTstep or Mac OS X. It felt like an even deeper embrace of the Smalltalk influences of the OpenStep API to enhance the desktop computing experience. Étoilé wasn’t merely a clone of NeXTstep or Mac OS X; it was its own thing that could’ve been a compelling contender to KDE, GNOME, and even macOS. Unfortunately É…

David Chisnall (one of the main developers behind Étoilé) has been working full-time on CHERI for the last decade to bring hardware that enables Étoilé's vision.

> I’d spent a lot of the previous years on Étoilé, which was a project to build a user-focused desktop environment that was built out of composable components with end-user programming as a key focus. We were inspired by the STEPS project at VPRI, which tried to build an entire system in under 20,000 lines of code. Our rule was simpler: we aimed to keep individual components to under 10 KLoC, which is small enough that a single person can understand it. This meant that we needed to be able to both use expressive languages and build expressive DSLs. We were starting from an Objective-C base, which gave us a nice model for late-bound components but brought along a lot of C baggage.

> Unlike STEPs, I didn’t want to rewrite the world in high-level languages. I wanted to use things like libavcodec and libavformat as-is, but without bugs in them being able to destroy the invariants that higher-level software depended on. I’d tried building isolation mechanisms with the MMU and found it severely limiting. I’d also looked at Mondrian Memory Protection, but the table-based approach didn’t compose well with language-level abstractions. Early CHERI wasn’t the right thing either, but it was close enough that I felt I could evolve it into the right shape.

> Most of my fingerprints in CHERI ISAs are with that goal in mind. I want to be able to compile existing C/C++ libraries for a CHERI compiler and use them safely from higher-level languages and use them directly. I’ve written a bit about this before:

> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/i-dont-care-memory-safety-dav...

> I want to be able to have documents embed scripting-language programs that can directly call large native libraries and still have strong guarantees that my system won’t be compromised. The key point is this observation:

> Isolation is easy, (safe) sharing is hard.

> It’s trivial to fully isolate two components. Separate cores, sandboxed processes, or WebAssembly sandboxes can give this kind of isolation, depending on the degree of isolation that you need. Most interesting things are built from communicating components and keeping things mostly isolated, but able to communicate safely, is much harder. For example, Rust says FFI is unsafe, but if you wanted it to be safe except that objects passed from Rust to C may contain arbitrary bit patterns after the call, that’s harder. You can do it with deep copies, but that’s a lot of overhead and very hard to do in the general case. You can do it with CHERI fairly easily, including richer things like deep immutability (in CHERIoT, we can also provide shallow and deep no-capture guarantees).

https://lobste.rs/s/ttr8op/lobsters_interview_with_david_chi...

Re: Étoilé – desktop built on GNUStep

#54
post #11

Étoilé was so promising….the idea of using OpenStep (via GNUstep) infrastructure in ways that went beyond NeXTstep or Mac OS X. It felt like an even deeper embrace of the Smalltalk influences of the OpenStep API to enhance the desktop computing experience. Étoilé wasn’t merely a clone of NeXTstep or Mac OS X; it was its own thing that could’ve been a compelling contender to KDE, GNOME, and even macOS. Unfortunately É…

David Chisnall (one of the main developers behind Étoilé) has been working full-time on CHERI for the last decade to bring hardware that enables Étoilé's vision. > I’d spent a lot of the previous years on Étoilé, which was a project to build a user-focused desktop environment that was built out of composable components with end-user programming as a key focus. We were inspired by the STEPS project at VPRI, which trie…

Thank you for sharing this interview link! I didn’t know that Étoilé was inspired by Alan Kay’s STEPS project. It makes a lot of sense. It would have been really cool to see a desktop environment that pushed Alan Kay’s ideas further.

Re: Étoilé – desktop built on GNUStep

#56

can someone please explain to me why is this a HN front page material? this seems to be a long abandoned project

It's an interesting road not taken, where there could have been much more commonality in application development between Linux and OS X.

Seems it also had more lofty goals than just making GNUstep mainstream.

Re: Étoilé – desktop built on GNUStep

#57

We need all hands on deck to bring this back to life

A good first step would be a linter that goes over source code for macOS and flags things that are being used that GNUStep doesn't implement. That would inform the most important missing features for it to allow source portability.

Re: Étoilé – desktop built on GNUStep

#58

The state of Texas is well-known as the "Lone Star" state, and appropriately enough there is a small town in east Texas known as Etoile, Texas. This is not even that far from the border with Louisiana and some of the unsettled parts of that old French territory. But they can really tell if you are from around those parts or not, since the correct local pronunciation of the word etoile is of course "yeetaw".

> since the correct local pronunciation of the word etoile is of course "yeetaw".

Some things lose a lot with translation.

Re: Étoilé – desktop built on GNUStep

#59
post #15

I have never played with GNUStep. By the time I actually started real work as a professional software person (2011) it was already kind of considered a joke, so I never bothered learning how to use it. It bothers me a bit, though. Developing for desktop Linux is still a pain in the ass, and I really wish the Linux community had agreed on One Desktop Framework To Rule Them All, and I think GNUStep could have been that…

I think that most active, current Linux users see fragmentation as a good thing, because they absolutely don't want consolidation of power. Many will point to a time when GNOME reigned supreme, and how did they use that power? To repeatedly completely redesign the GUI in ways that the community hated, because "we know better".

There is a much larger group of people who would support "One Desktop Framework To Rule Them All", but they aren't as loud, so they don't get heard.

Re: Étoilé – desktop built on GNUStep

#60
post #11

Étoilé was so promising….the idea of using OpenStep (via GNUstep) infrastructure in ways that went beyond NeXTstep or Mac OS X. It felt like an even deeper embrace of the Smalltalk influences of the OpenStep API to enhance the desktop computing experience. Étoilé wasn’t merely a clone of NeXTstep or Mac OS X; it was its own thing that could’ve been a compelling contender to KDE, GNOME, and even macOS. Unfortunately É…

I love the ideas of Smalltalk and Lisp machines too. Do you know of anything promising in that area? (other than Ink & Switch)

https://newspeaklanguage.org/ ...?
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