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I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

miguelconner.substack.com

51–60 of 95 posts

Re: I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

#51
Weird, someone posted something here talking about an API that would track individual words and then feed them into an LLM; I wrote a response, but it seems the comment was deleted? At any rate, hope you all don't mind if I post my comment here, as I think it's relevant and potentially interesting.

8I think I've already built what you want:

https://api-dev.laleolanguage.com/v1/docs

I started working on this system before LLMs were a thing, but its purpose was specifically to address the problem described in this article -- "flashcard blindness", I've heard it called.

The idea was to solve this, instead of with an LLM, but with a giant corpus of native input. The algorithm tracks all the "language building blocks" separately, assigns each of them a difficulty and a study value, and then calculates the total difficulty and total study value of each selection in your corpus. Using that you can find material to read (or listen to, but I haven't gotten that far yet) that balances difficulty and impact on your learning. This way you're actually reading new material, rather than "memorizing rectangles".

There's a public beta for Biblical Greek [1]; I learned Koine Greek entirely through my own system. But I initially developed it for myself for Mandarin; and it's got experimental ports to Korean and Japanese (all three of which are not yet public).

But yes, this could definitely be integrated with an LLM:

1. Using the API, the LLM could ask for the top 40 words to learn or review

2. The LLM could then generate something using something from those words

3. The LLM could send the generated content to the API, to have it graded for difficulty. If the overall difficulty was too high, it could rephrase things to make them simpler (or perhaps even rephrase things to make them more complex, if the difficulty were too low).

4. The LLM could then show the content to the user, and log that the user had seen it.

The API isn't public yet, but if you're interested in trying it out, drop me a line:

contact@laleolanguage.com

[1] https://www.laleolanguage.com

Re: I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

#52
Anki helps the best when you are at the beginning of the language journey. With a vocabulary of 0 words you won't be able to read anything at all, and there's nothing to talk to an LLM about yet.

Those 'useless' static cards are extremely efficient for learning the 1st 2000-3000 words, which is key to start reading. After about 4000 there's little sense in using SRS anymore, and then I'd rather spend more time with an actual book, but getting there with anki felt like using a cheat code compared to how I learnt my first foreign language. It's not exciting, it's pure toil, but it does work.

And when it comes to the next stage, I can't imagine how random llm-generated texts are better than, say, graded readers or real books. Most people would likely find it more interesting to spend an hour or two a day following an exciting story and characters they care about, and it's (based on a sample of one) way easier to memorise all of those new words when there's an emotional connection for each one (just how we form associations between words and experiences while growing up).

As for the app itself- I have tried it with my native language, and at the advanced level it produced a sterile and slightly unnatural text with a complexity of a typical fiction. If someone could read this, then I don't see why they would bother. At the beginner level the app generated a couple of news stories which, though simple grammatically, had a vocab that I would never have recommended to a novice. Local news of a "a firefighter saved a kitten stuck on a tree" variety are much more useful for that kind of learning, and you get this from any free newspaper.

LLMs are extremely useful for learning foreign languages, but I feel like this isn't the way to go

Re: I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

#53

I found Anki way too heavy and the available decks mostly wrong way around for actually learning vocabulary (that is they were from foreign language to native, instead of the other way around) and switching the direction was way too cumbersome. I have not yet found a really good tool for learning Mandarin, except for classes and actually talking with people and doing the hard work of writing the characters again and…

I was quite successful learning Mandarin by using Anki in the way that is typically discouraged, i.e., with a downloaded deck (SpoonFedChinese). I have very little time per day to devote to learning so building my own cars isn't an option, but with this and a couple of last-minute classes I went from HSK2 to HSK3. I also find Du Chinese and The Chairman's Bao quite useful, although indeed for the writing, nothing see…

For spaced repetition practice for writing, try Skritter.

Re: I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

#54
In my limited experience with static cards you really do just end up learning the "appearance" of a card, which is why I've been more successful with dynamic cards, like say a card showing a concordance randomly selected from a large corpus every review, showing the word I want to learn in various contexts.

Re: I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

#55
post #21

I use Anki to study all kinds of subjects, and more than half of the value is processing what I learned (usually with pencil and paper) into good anki cards ("atomic", as per Michael Nielsen's definition), including the insights that I had when studying the subject (like "what's the comparison with X that I used to understand Y?") I'm not sure if it is efficient, mind you, but I suppose it's effective because I can r…

I had the exact same experience. The more work I did up front on a card, the better I was able to remember. When I was learning the kanji cards, I would take the time to draw them out in a special notebook while thinking carefully about the different components, and it really helped with retention.

I did not do this with many cards though, hoping that they would eventually stick.

I think in general the more you engage with the thing you are doing, the better you remember. Even when reading or listening to a lecture or whatever. Maybe what I'm proposing here is that by making it dynamic you create a system where deeper engagement is necessary.

Re: I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

#56
post #20

I think that the author was using Anki incorrectly, and that led them to the spurious conclusion that "Anki is dead". I also have attempted to use Anki this way- using someone else's deck to try to force myself to learn something new. But that doesn't work, because it is just memorizing random symbols, as they noted in the article ("The enemy is the static card"). For example in maths learning, memorizing arbitrary t…

So I definitely agree that this is 100% the best way to use Anki, that's why I wrote the line about "Writing cards that trigger memories of experiences I had in the real world always produced better cards." I couldn't give you a percentage, but I made most of my own cards, including all of those 2000+ kanji cards. There's lots of debate in the language learning community about vocab cards or sentence cards, and gener…

I agree that sentences are generally superior to vocab. Vocab cards are extremely problematic once you go beyond beginner level, because words can (and often do) have multiple translations in both directions. This could be because there are multiple words meaning the same thing, or because a word has multiple meanings.

For example if the English prompt is "watermelon" - are you supposed to recall the Italian word cocomero, anguria, or melone d'aqua (all of which mean watermelon)? If the English prompt is "bank" - is that a place you deposit money, a river bank, to bank (turn) a plane, or to bank (count) on something happening? You end up having to build in messy hacks like giving clues in the prompt as to which translation is intended (which means you memorise the clue instead of the word) or having cards for bank(1), bank(2), bank(3), and bank(4) which becomes very tedious for recall. Sentences mitigate these problems somewhat.

I now only use vocab cards for object nouns where there's only one important translation, and mainly because I can put pictures on these cards so that I'm learning from e.g. the concept of an orange instead of the English word for orange (which saves you the step of mentally translating when you aren't yet fluent with the word).

Re: I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

#57
post #20

I think that the author was using Anki incorrectly, and that led them to the spurious conclusion that "Anki is dead". I also have attempted to use Anki this way- using someone else's deck to try to force myself to learn something new. But that doesn't work, because it is just memorizing random symbols, as they noted in the article ("The enemy is the static card"). For example in maths learning, memorizing arbitrary t…

So I definitely agree that this is 100% the best way to use Anki, that's why I wrote the line about "Writing cards that trigger memories of experiences I had in the real world always produced better cards." I couldn't give you a percentage, but I made most of my own cards, including all of those 2000+ kanji cards. There's lots of debate in the language learning community about vocab cards or sentence cards, and gener…

I'm so tempted to try improving my language skills with Anki, both for my native language and my daily use language. But the commitment feels so daunting- I've barely missed a day in my reviews for the last two years, and only have 28,000 reviews total. I'm very impressed by your 98,000!

I guess the best way to start is just to create a new deck in it with one card and then go from there. I already have a daily review habit, which is the most important part.

Re: I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

#58
Anki is dead because, after LLMs were introduced, people lost the incentive to learn at all.

Frankly, who wants to learn something the old way when you can ask an LLM to do it for you?

All this reminds me of my home country when the Ponzi schemes were at their highest point (2008). There were small and medium cities, were a sizeable percent of the population actually stopped working at all! Why? Because the ponzi schemes were promising up to 300% returns within 6 months! And the Ponzi schemes were actually delivering (so much that the banks actually pressured the government to intervene). So people put all the money in the ponzis and simply wait a bit to cash in part of their returns. No one opened their small grocery stores, nor small pubs, nor did anyone want to do chores or manual labor. Until everything collapsed.

Re: I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

#59
Very good article but something bothers me:

> Language learners chase something called i+1 material

I really dislike the traditional language teaching method. It didn't work for me. It's too abstract, boring, and you end up memorizing stuff the wrong way. And usually later you need to un-learn/re-learn things properly.

What worked for me (and fellow struggling students I taught) was normal text about topics I find interesting. Like boats? Pick boating magazines, books, and documentaries/movies (turn subtitles on). From WTF to "I know some of those words" to is that a pattern? And only then go for the actual rules of the language. This way you are engaged and learn real-world things.

And for dull learning, it's better to spend time in i-1. Miyagi-stile practice repetition of the basic things to the point you can't fail even if you are tired. Then move to games like finding rhymes or tongue-twisters. [Ironically, AFAIK this is the Japanese way to learn calligraphy, Judo, etc]

Same applies to many other disciplines. YMMV

Re: I did 98,000 Anki reviews. Anki is already dead

#60
post #31

I don't see the dichotomy, both tools seem rather complementary to me. For example I use LLMs to generate cards for me, and Anki's algorithm to make them stick. Similarly a LLM plugin could easily present a fresh sentence each time you review a particular vocab

I agree that they could be complementary, but I think there's a not-yet-made tool that goes even beyond this, where you are interacting with an LLM that has an Anki-like backend of some kind, keeping track not only the number of mistakes but of what kind of mistakes you made and when, so that it can later bringing up the card in a more natural way.
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