Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada • Hacker News Board

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#51

Post by untog » Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 2:32 AM UTC

neilk wrote: post #10

throwaway1979 wrote: post #4

I'm canuck and am very cynical about the startup space in Canada. 1) Large number of the best developers leave. I doubled my salary moving from Toronto to the Bay area. 2) Silicon Valley (and NY) has smart money. Not to insult Canadian VCs, but the ones I've met are glorified bankers. 3) This is no longer true. The recent govt is increasingly unfriendly to immigrants. 4) In the bay area, everyone I knew (and their do…

Agreed. There's basically only a couple of reasons to start your startup in Canada. * Portable, cheap healthcare. A lot of people in the US don't join a startup due to the health insurance issue. The healthcare you get from a startup is not even close to what a big company can offer you. * You're like me (no CS degree) and the US government doesn't think you look like an engineer. This can be worked around, but for m…

Absolutely anecdotal, but on the second point I found the US easier to deal with than Canada. Not because of the government, but because no Canadian companies (and definitely startups) were prepared to sponsor me.

Largely it was because they'd never done it before- US companies are very familiar with it. So, I left Canada and now live in the US.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#52

Post by halostatue » Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 2:32 AM UTC

throwaway1979 wrote: post #4

I'm canuck and am very cynical about the startup space in Canada. 1) Large number of the best developers leave. I doubled my salary moving from Toronto to the Bay area. 2) Silicon Valley (and NY) has smart money. Not to insult Canadian VCs, but the ones I've met are glorified bankers. 3) This is no longer true. The recent govt is increasingly unfriendly to immigrants. 4) In the bay area, everyone I knew (and their do…

I've recently joined a Canadian startup, and I'm less cynical than I was at one point—and I'm an emigré from the U.S. in any case (who has gotten invitations to interview with several big-name U.S. organizations).

1. Yes, a lot of folks who can't see past the dollars leave. I've done the math and for me to work in the Valley, I would need to make almost three times what I make, because I'd also be losing my wife's teacher salary as income (which is about 80% of my current salary). She also doesn't want to live in the U.S.—we happen to like our health care and the relative calm of Canada.

2. There are several startups in the space where I work (we are all at least partially funded by the same fund) and they're all pretty interesting.

3. Sadly, you're right about the Harper government's unfriendliness toward immigration. At some point, they will be turfed and saner immigration policies will be reinstated. Hopefully, someone will also have the political will to fix our shameful treatment of certain skilled immigrants as well (doctors should not be invited to Canada on the basis of their skills and then denied certification because the provinces have jurisdiction over said certification).

4. If you're in the right spots in Toronto, it's fairly easy to find startups. If you're not, it's harder. I suspect it's a bit like New York, where there's a lot of financial software development because Toronto, like New York, is the financial centre of its country.

5. I'm not sure what the government influence through things like SR&ED is…every company I've worked for that used SR&ED basically came up with submittable work based on what we did as part of our regular roadmap.

I'm quite happy to stay here and work for startups here.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#53

Post by togasystems » Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 3:04 AM UTC

amackera wrote: post #40

togasystems wrote: post #34

I just finished a large contract and am starting to look for positions at promising startups in Vancouver. Compared to SF, there really isn't many options. Most are video game companies. The cost of living is high in Vancouver. While the salaries offered are higher than Toronto, they are no where near SF. I wonder if it would be worth it traveling to San Fran to test the employment market?

If you're willing to move to Toronto, you can apply at Top Hat Monocle (my company).

Just moved from there, but thanks for the offer!

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#54

Post by jensv » Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 3:16 AM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #32

bearmf wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

110k 3 years out of college is very rare in NYC as well. EDIT: It is certainly not unheard of, but only for top graduates. Also, I see you were talking about equivalent 110k salary in Toronto which would be 130-140k in New York. This is a high base salary by any standard.

I'm certainly not a top graduate - I eked out of university with a 72% average. Neither are the other Canadian expats I know who are pulling this kind of cash - all are smart and hard-working, but none were among the top of their classes. $110K 3 years out of college, at least in the current climate, is not at all uncommon in either NYC or SF/SV. It is not universal, but it's not rare either. If you look at the major…

So how exactly would you recommend going about finding a programming job in the U.S? Are there any resources you found particularly useful given that I have no connections, little knowledge of the job market, and respectable (but no niche or outstanding side projects, mediocore GPA, etc.) skills that would render me invisible in the eyes of "top" employers like Google?

I've heard so much about how the grass is greener on the other side but it is not so easy for some of us to join in on the action. I have a bachelors in CS and two years of Canadian experience under the belt.

For example I've found indeed.ca to be very useful for locating job openings in most Canadian cities and http://www.grasmick.com/ was recommended to me by some expats.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#55

Post by pcc » Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 3:17 AM UTC

wrath wrote: post #46

pcc wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really surprised by all the negative comments around (5) here. With SR&ED its possible to get back a substantial amount (like 2/3) of the money you invested into development. Another way of looking at it, is that it's like doing your development at offshore rates, except working with local talent. In fact, it self-propagates: Fund your initial development, get back a portion via SR&ED, use that toward development, ge…

I totally agree the SR&ED is a huge plus for canadian companies. I've co-founded or been part of many successful startups in Canada and they were in part successful because of the SR&ED program. As long as you design and/or develop algorithms and software/hardware that improve canadian R&D you qualify for the service. $100k spent on the first year will give ~ $60K the next year, which you re-invest in R&D, and that g…

Its also worth noting that SR&ED (specifically the ED part which is typically applicable to startups), only cares that you are seeking, systematically and in the face of technical uncertainty, for technical advancement within your organization.

They don't care whether the outcome of this search is successful or not.

This means you have the incentive to risk the funds on such an endeavour, as you can get the credit despite your success or failure.

Risk real money, and you'll get a refundable tax credit with a chq in the mail.

Risk "virtual" money (e.g. accrue a salary that you might only pay out later provided you have sufficient cash flow), and you get credits that can be carried and applied in years when you had/have real money.

One of the implications, is that if things end up going sideways, you still have the option to e.g. switch your startup to doing something else (like contract work), apply the old credits to the new money and recover something of your risk.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#56

Post by tjholowaychuk » Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 3:45 AM UTC

SF is kinda dirty, and you'll pay easily 2-3x as much for a place too so of course they pay more!

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#57

Post by pcc » Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 3:59 AM UTC

crazycanuck wrote: post #49

pcc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also it can work out to a fair bit more than 20 - 35% -- especially if you can use the proxy method for overhead expenses.

We just went through the process for the first time and landed right around 50%. Our claim was reviewed (this is typical for first time claimants), and while non-trivial the process was well-managed and clear. We did it ourselves instead of using a consultant, and they were very understanding of a few mistakes we made, helped us rectify them and sent us on our way. I don't know if this is typical, but I really can't…

CRA at their info sessions will tell you that they don't understand why more people don't just write their own claims.

I think people looking at it from the outside, or for the first time, easily feel intimidated ("its the taxman!").

The reality is that CRA does want to work with you -- e.g. if you go to the info sessions, you can talk directly to the actual people running the SR&ED program, and they genuinely want to reward innovation and help you maximize the money you can get out, while ensuring that taxpayers (who are footing the bill) are looked after.

For example:

- besides the salaries paid for eligible work, you can also also claim the proportion of certain overhead expenses related to that work. Or, you can just choose to use the "proxy method" where they basically take the eligible salaries and tack on another 65%. This can be huge, and people do ask the question: "that extra 65% may end up being way more than my actual overheads". CRA's response: the law allows you to pick either, so pick the one that provides the most benefit to your business.

- a CRA officer once mentioned to me that they were extremely frustrated by being unable to approve a particular claim where the work seemed good, but there was insufficient documentary proof. After many months of continually going back and asking "are you sure you cannot dig up any documentation", someone at the company happened to mention that there had been an internal email conversation thread about the work -- and this ended up providing all the documentation the CRA needed to approve the claim.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#58

Post by pyre » Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 4:03 AM UTC

deskamess wrote: post #24

tlear wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Any numbers? Toronto you can get some pretty decent money. Also living in downtown with no car as opposed to driving everywhere in Bay area and paying crazy rent. It is not that clear cut imo. NYC is a better comparison probably 2. Not sure on this not enough experience 3. It is trivial to get a visa for Canada to work, compared to US there is no comparison. Note that for Canadian citizens it is different in US (m…

#3... it is not trivial to get a work permit in Canada these days. Your employer has to involve themselves in an official recruitment process and show that none of the candidates qualified. This requirement is an almost US green card like requirement. By comparison the H-1B (us work permit) is much easier to get. Getting a work permit is relatively easy if you are in oil related (non office) work, but not if in techn…

I thought that NAFTA had clauses for IT workers (of course this only applies to US citizens).

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#59

Post by sayhello » Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 4:40 AM UTC

throwaway1979 wrote: post #4

I'm canuck and am very cynical about the startup space in Canada. 1) Large number of the best developers leave. I doubled my salary moving from Toronto to the Bay area. 2) Silicon Valley (and NY) has smart money. Not to insult Canadian VCs, but the ones I've met are glorified bankers. 3) This is no longer true. The recent govt is increasingly unfriendly to immigrants. 4) In the bay area, everyone I knew (and their do…

I'll bite.

While it is true that there are less companies you would expect would pay Bay Area size salaries, things have changed in Canada.

potatolicious told me to write this for the public good.

I work for Mozilla.

New grads, admittedly with co-op experience, get paid at least 90k+ with the same 30% bonus as all Mozilla employees, putting them in the 6-digit range mentioned in the thread.

Amazon recently opened an engineering office in Toronto, and Zynga has been here for a while, Google is in Kitchener, 1 hour away from Toronto.

A friend running a startup was complaining about the war for talent going on and was willing to pay salaries well in the NYC/Bay area range.

Food for thought?

While its true that employees tend to be less promiscuous as they can be in the peninsula, it is not true that developers do not have interesting work to do in Canada or that they won't be well paid.

While Mozilla has offices in Vancouver, I do not know enough about the city to talk about the situation there.

edit: missed part of a sentence. oops

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#60

Post by potatolicious » Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 1:56 PM UTC

jensv wrote: post #54

potatolicious wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm certainly not a top graduate - I eked out of university with a 72% average. Neither are the other Canadian expats I know who are pulling this kind of cash - all are smart and hard-working, but none were among the top of their classes. $110K 3 years out of college, at least in the current climate, is not at all uncommon in either NYC or SF/SV. It is not universal, but it's not rare either. If you look at the major…

So how exactly would you recommend going about finding a programming job in the U.S? Are there any resources you found particularly useful given that I have no connections, little knowledge of the job market, and respectable (but no niche or outstanding side projects, mediocore GPA, etc.) skills that would render me invisible in the eyes of "top" employers like Google? I've heard so much about how the grass is greene…

Recruiters may be your best way to get your foot in the door. Once you're here the jobs seems to find themselves - tech events, meetups, and other events will quickly build a network, and at least for now, you'd never want for a job.

First things first: get a LinkedIn profile if you don't have one already. Spruce it up, keyword it straight to hell - name drop pretty much every technology, field, and subfield you have substantial experience in. Almost all recruiters rely heavily (some would say exclusively) on LinkedIn for discovery, make sure you're positioned to show up in their searches.

Secondly, if you have friends in the Bay Area, Seattle, or NYC, they're probably being contacted daily by recruiters - tell them to send some your way. US recruiters may not be actively seeking out Canadians, but if a qualified one lands on their doorsteps I'm certain they would be pleased.

I have a recruiter I've worked with in the past I'm happy with (disclosure: I don't get any kickbacks or anything), if you want to contact me privately we can see if there's a fit there (email in my profile).