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Curious about the training data of OpenAI's new GPT-OSS models? I was too

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Re: Curious about the training data of OpenAI's new GPT-OSS models? I was too

#51
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, asking an LLM to generate the inkblot is the same as asking the LLM to write a string and then obfuscating it in an inkblot. OCRing literal random inkblots will not produce valid C (or C# or python) code, but it will prodce valid Perl most of the time, because Perl is weird, and that is funny. It's not about obfuscating text in inkblot, it's about almost any string being a valid Perl program, which is not the cas…

Okay, my bad. > it's about almost any string being a valid Perl program Is this true? I think most random unquoted strings aren't valid Perl programs either, am I wrong?

Yes. That was the whole point of the original comment you were misunderstanding.

Because of the flexibility of Perl and heavy amount of symbol usage, you can in fact run most random combinations of strings and they’ll be valid Perl.

Copying from the original comment: https://www.mcmillen.dev/sigbovik/

Re: Curious about the training data of OpenAI's new GPT-OSS models? I was too

#52
Not very rigorous or scientific, honestly, I would say it's just clickbait spam with some pretty graphs. Everything on twitter is now a "deep dive". No info on how the 10M "random examples" were generated and how that prevents the model from collapsing around variations of the same output. Others already mentioned how the "classification" of output by coding language is bunk with a good explanation for how Perl can come out on top even if it's not actually Perl, but I was struck by OP saying "(btw, from my analysis Java and Kotlin should be way higher. classifier may have gone wrong)" but then merrily continuing to use the data.

Personally, I expect more rigor from any analysis and would hold myself to a higher standard. If I see anomalous output at a stage, I don't think "hmm looks like one particular case may be bad but the rest is fine" but rather "something must have gone wrong and the entire output/methodology is unusable garbage" until I figure out exactly how and why it went wrong. And 99 times out of a 100 it wasn't the one case (that happened to be languages OP was familiar with) but rather something fundamentally incorrect in the approach that means the data isn't usable and doesn't tell you anything.

Re: Curious about the training data of OpenAI's new GPT-OSS models? I was too

#53
post #38
post #28

OP seems to have run a programming language detector on the generated texts, and made a graph of programming language frecuencies: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gx2kvNxXEAAkBO0.jpg?name=orig As a result, OP seems to think the model was trained on a lot of Perl: https://xcancel.com/jxmnop/status/1953899440315527273#m LOL! I think these results speak more to the flexibility of Perl than any actual insight on the training…

I don't understand why Perl, R, and AppleScript rank so much higher than their observed use.

The prominence of AppleScript ought to have been a pretty big red flag: the author seems to be claiming the model was trained on more AppleScript than Python, which simply can’t be true.

Ironically LLMs seem pretty bad at writing AppleScript, I think because (i) the syntax is English-like but very brittle, (ii) the application dictionaries are essential but generally not on the web, and (iii) most of the AppleScript that is on the web has been written by end users, often badly.

Re: Curious about the training data of OpenAI's new GPT-OSS models? I was too

#54
post #38
post #28

OP seems to have run a programming language detector on the generated texts, and made a graph of programming language frecuencies: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gx2kvNxXEAAkBO0.jpg?name=orig As a result, OP seems to think the model was trained on a lot of Perl: https://xcancel.com/jxmnop/status/1953899440315527273#m LOL! I think these results speak more to the flexibility of Perl than any actual insight on the training…

I don't understand why Perl, R, and AppleScript rank so much higher than their observed use.

R being so high makes no sense to me either.

I think as of the last Stack Overflow developer survey, it only had ~4% market share…

I say this as an R user who spams LLMs with R on a daily basis.

Re: Curious about the training data of OpenAI's new GPT-OSS models? I was too

#56
post #28

OP seems to have run a programming language detector on the generated texts, and made a graph of programming language frecuencies: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gx2kvNxXEAAkBO0.jpg?name=orig As a result, OP seems to think the model was trained on a lot of Perl: https://xcancel.com/jxmnop/status/1953899440315527273#m LOL! I think these results speak more to the flexibility of Perl than any actual insight on the training…

Honestly these results may say as much about the classifier as they do about the data they’re classifying.

Re: Curious about the training data of OpenAI's new GPT-OSS models? I was too

#57
post #28

OP seems to have run a programming language detector on the generated texts, and made a graph of programming language frecuencies: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gx2kvNxXEAAkBO0.jpg?name=orig As a result, OP seems to think the model was trained on a lot of Perl: https://xcancel.com/jxmnop/status/1953899440315527273#m LOL! I think these results speak more to the flexibility of Perl than any actual insight on the training…

Jack has a lot of really bad takes and frequently makes lots of mistakes. Honestly, I don't know why people take him seriously.

I mean you can go read his blog post that's pinned where he argues that there's no new ideas and it is all data. He makes the argument that architecture doesn't matter, which is just so demonstrably false that it is laughable. He's a scale maximalist.

I also expect an AI researcher from a top university to not make such wild mistakes

  > 3. RLHF: first proposed (to my knowledge) in the InstructGPT paper from OpenAI in 2022
I mean if you go read the instruct paper on page 2 you'll see

  | Specifically, we use reinforcement learning from human feedback (RLHF; Christiano et al., 2017; Stiennon et al., 2020) to fine-tune GPT-3 to follow a broad class of written instructions (see Figure 2).
Where in Christiano you'll find

  || Our algorithm follows the same basic approach as Akrour et al. (2012) and Akrour et al. (2014)
I mean this is just obviously wrong. It is so obviously wrong it should make the person saying it second guess themselves (which is categorically the same error you're pointing out).

I'm sure we can trace the idea back to the 80's if not earlier. This is the kind of take I'd expect a non-researcher to have, but not someone with two dozen NLP papers. The Instruct-GPT paper was just the first time someone integrated RLHF into a LLM (but not a LM).

Maybe a better article is the one he wrote on Super Intelligence From First Principles. As usual, when someone says "First Principles" you bet they're not gonna start from First Principles... I guess this makes sense in CS since we index from 0

[0] https://arxiv.org/abs/2203.02155

[Christiano et al] https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03741

[Stiennon eta al] https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.01325

[Akrour et al (2012)] https://arxiv.org/abs/1208.0984

Re: Curious about the training data of OpenAI's new GPT-OSS models? I was too

#58

Not very rigorous or scientific, honestly, I would say it's just clickbait spam with some pretty graphs. Everything on twitter is now a "deep dive". No info on how the 10M "random examples" were generated and how that prevents the model from collapsing around variations of the same output. Others already mentioned how the "classification" of output by coding language is bunk with a good explanation for how Perl can c…

  > Personally, I expect more rigor from any analysis and would hold myself to a higher standard.
When something is "pretty bizarre" the most likely conclusion is "I fucked up", which is very likely in this case. I really wonder if he actually checked the results of the classifier. These things can be wildly inaccurate since differences in languages can be quite small at times and some are very human language oriented. He even admits that Java and Kotlin should be higher but then doesn't question Perl, R, Applescript, Rust, and the big drop to Python. What's the joke? If you slam your head on the keyboard you'll generate a valid Perl program?

It worries me that I get this feeling from quite a number of ML people who are being hired and paid big bucks from big tech companies. I say this as someone in ML too. There's a propensity to just accept outputs rather than question them. This is like a basic part of doing any research, you should always be incredibly suspicious of your own results. What did Feynman say? Something like "The first rule is not to be fooled and you're the easiest person to fool"?

Re: Curious about the training data of OpenAI's new GPT-OSS models? I was too

#59

Not very rigorous or scientific, honestly, I would say it's just clickbait spam with some pretty graphs. Everything on twitter is now a "deep dive". No info on how the 10M "random examples" were generated and how that prevents the model from collapsing around variations of the same output. Others already mentioned how the "classification" of output by coding language is bunk with a good explanation for how Perl can c…

> Personally, I expect more rigor from any analysis and would hold myself to a higher standard. When something is "pretty bizarre" the most likely conclusion is "I fucked up", which is very likely in this case. I really wonder if he actually checked the results of the classifier. These things can be wildly inaccurate since differences in languages can be quite small at times and some are very human language oriented.…

[deleted]

Re: Curious about the training data of OpenAI's new GPT-OSS models? I was too

#60
post #28

OP seems to have run a programming language detector on the generated texts, and made a graph of programming language frecuencies: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gx2kvNxXEAAkBO0.jpg?name=orig As a result, OP seems to think the model was trained on a lot of Perl: https://xcancel.com/jxmnop/status/1953899440315527273#m LOL! I think these results speak more to the flexibility of Perl than any actual insight on the training…

Jack has a lot of really bad takes and frequently makes lots of mistakes. Honestly, I don't know why people take him seriously. I mean you can go read his blog post that's pinned where he argues that there's no new ideas and it is all data. He makes the argument that architecture doesn't matter, which is just so demonstrably false that it is laughable. He's a scale maximalist. I also expect an AI researcher from a to…

Hi again. I had already written about this later in my blog post (which is unrelated to this thread), but the point was that RLHF hadn't been applied to language models at scale until InstructGPT. I edited the post just now to clarify this. Thanks for the feedback!
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