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Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

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Re: Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

#51
The core argument presented is that children watching porn is a cultural problem and therefore can’t be addressed by a technical solution.

I agree with the preface that the online safety act is a big dumpster fire. Regulators and lawmakers can and often do fail to effectively regulate.

I disagree that calling it a cultural problem and saying “oh well, can’t do anything” is a legitimate conclusion. I mean governments aren’t supposed to attack cultural problems, only protect the safety and wellbeing of its citizens. Nobody wants the government telling you what clothes to wear and what shows to watch.

The rhetorical “example” given is just plain false. It’s not like the government sending someone to your house to age check you when you pick up a knife. It’s like them requiring a bouncer at the door of a knife store.

We ID people for purchase of alcohol. It’s not perfect. Older kids get around it. And it’s definitely a “cultural problem” to some degree. But there isn't harm being caused by requiring an age check to purchase.

So often lately I see people letting perfect be the enemy of good.

If you wanted to fix problems with the implementation of the online safety act you would loosen the burden imposed on user content driven communities by exposing the individuals posting to legal liability for their posts rather than imposing unimplementable moderation requirements on the service operators. You would attack institutional porn not message boards where someone uploads a nsfw photo. Regulators don’t understand the stratification of the internet. You’d require sites that fall under regulation to use digital ID documents. You make it illegal for that data to be stored at all and simply tell sites to update a column in the user db “age verified: true”. You would not use IP address-based or credit card based filtering.

There are many ways this could have been not a regulatory dumpster fire and still moved the needle towards sustainable and effective online ID document presentation. One example of failure doesn’t damn the whole concept.

In this instance, though, the online safety act should definitely be repealed and reworked.

Also no parental controls are not readily and widely available nor are they easy to configure and install, not least because of lack of a digital ID story.

Re: Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

#52
post #47

> I mean, there are already a raft of tools available to stop children accessing harmful content online. There are filters and protections and safeguards on almost every device on the market today. If children are constantly accessing harmful content, it’s because these settings haven’t been enabled by parents or guardians. These parental controls rather suck though; see e.g. [1]. This basically matches my own experi…

> And why isn't there a "Content-Rating: sex" or "Content-Rating: gambling" HTTP header? Or something along those lines? Why isn't there one easy "under 12" button on a phone to lock down tons of stuff, from PornHub to gambling sites to what-have-you? All of this is also a failing of the technical community to actually build reasonable and usable standards and tools, too.

The mobile app world solved this years ago, and successfully generates age ratings for different countries based on developer interviews. (It's part of the app submission process).

There are problems with the mobile app world, but that isn't one of them.

Re: Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

#53
The world isn't child-safe. Nobody would want children to play on a motorway, nobody would feed children xxxtra-hot curry of death, nobody would want children to drive a car or play with kitchen knifes.

Yet none of those far more problematic things comes with an age check, a fence, government controls or any special kinds of locks. We just educate children, and parents pay attention. Children that are too young to understand are put in special places like kindergarten, and even at a later age are often supervised by responsible adults.

I don't see why the internet should suddenly be all of that in reverse: Things like the online safety act require a whole world full of child-safe sites, and a child-impenetrable fence put around the few ones considered unsafe. This is totally ass-backwards.

Re: Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

#54
post #30

> a statement like “we should stop young kids watching porn” is so agreeable that only the nuttiest amongst us could even begin to disagree with it I mostly disagree with it. I don't want prepubescent children watching porn of course, but the vast majority of them aren't doing that with any regularity, nor do they have any desire to. It isn't a problem that demands a robust solution with serious downsides. I do think…

Since gambling laws have been relaxed in a number of countries over the last few years, there has been a rather concerning rise in teenage gambling addiction.

This is perhaps a better example than porn. I'd be much more worried about my 14-year old spending all of their (or my) money on gambling than having a wank every once in a while.

That said, I have accidentally landed on porn sites over the years (including in a demo in front of the entire company haha). I'm not part of the hyper-prudish American contingent where any form of nudity does irreparable trauma to a child, but ... there's some pretty wild stuff out there. It's not like when I was young and stay up late to sneakily watch a soft-core porn at midnight.

Re: Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

#55

An obligatory link for either anyone living in Britain or with British citizenship: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/722903 More people have signed this than the membership of the labour party(!)

The whole country could sign that petition and it will be ignored. There is no legal/political solution to this. The sooner people accept that the better.

Nonsense. Promoting the petition and keeping talking about the law is one of the most effective things that can be done to make life uncomfortable for the politicians who are responsible for this mess. More pressure is needed and politicians will have to face journalists asking unpleasant questions when people continue to complain.

Re: Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

#56

Absolutely nothing about it has gone wrong. They have collected some personal data from law abiding pornography consumers: obvious perverts who should know better anyway. If their information gets released it will be their own fault. Some other stuff got hidden, but that's no problem as the BBC will tell you anything that you need to know anyway. They can, and will, readily ban VPNs later, since those have no legitim…

> obvious perverts who should know better anyway.

Why are these perverts obvious?

> They can, and will, readily ban VPNs later, since those have no legitimate purpose for individuals, and will only be allowed for licensed operators like banks, hospitals, and defence manufacturers.

This is not true. All kinds of companies and private people use VPNs to safeguard their computer infrastructure.

Re: Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

#57

This adds little to the debate. A really interesting question would be to ask Aylo -- the world's largest pornographer -- why they are complying with the UK law and working with the regulator (population ~70M), but blocking whole states in response to the French law (population ~70M also) and Texas (population ~30M). Because there obviously is some nuance and realpolitik here, when Aylo could very easily just block t…

You can just go to their press releases [1]. > For years Aylo has publicly called for effective and enforceable age assurance solutions that protect minors online, while ensuring the safety and privacy of all users. The United Kingdom is the first country to present these same priorities demonstrably. At least according to their release, the UK worked with them on it. They also have an updated statement on France [2]…

I mean, in the second or third round of this with the tories in 2016, Aylo (Mindgeek) were offering up their own solution for age verification. So they are not exactly unconflicted.

But the fact remains here that the world's largest porn company is not presenting this as a big civil liberties issue; they have moved on from that.

I think it's important to understand that Ofcom isn't just imposing nonsense policies without any consultation with the very people they are trying to regulate.

They may not be succeeding, and people can disagree with the policy outcome, but there's a huge amount of misinformation suggesting that this is simple thoughtless autocratic censorious wishful thinking, when it is in fact an attempt at a policy of industry self-regulation backed by penalties, which is how the ombudsman system is meant to work.

Also I think a lot of US commentators don't understand that mobile phone providers in the UK block adult content by default and have been moving to that position over the long term because it is the only practical parental control mechanism that exists in a market of devices with different operating systems, menus, and often absence of on-device parental control mechanisms at all.

Re: Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

#58
post #3

>Solving problems in the online world is no longer a technical issue Unfortunately I have zero faith in UK government having a moment of introspection here. Instead of realizing it's not fit for purpose they'll double down on the broken approach. Fully expecting the "solution" here to be more regulation, more punishment, more cost, more killing small sites, more inconvenience, more technically unfeasible things (vpn…

I don't really understand Keir Starmer on this. Or well, on anything really. The public has been pretty clear what they want most of all is a competent government that will take care of basic core tasks like cost of living, NHS, etc. Instead he takes a massively unpopular Tory culture war bill and implemented it as if it was his own idea (in addition to a number of other unforced baffling choices over the last year).

I understand Boris Johnson. I understand Tony Blair. I even understand Liz Truss, mad as she may be. I just don't get Starmer at all. I almost suspect he's somehow in league with Nigel Farage to make him the next prime minister.

Re: Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

#59

> In reality, this wouldn’t happen, because, generally, people understand that stabbings are a cultural issue, rather than a technical one Many UK MPs don't understand this. I've heard of MPs making (moronic) suggestions such as selling kitchen knives without the point on it. I've literally seen this advertised as a solution on the news. For whatever reason they don't seem to understand that literally anyone can make…

> I've heard of MPs making (moronic) suggestions such as selling kitchen knives without the point on it. I've literally seen this advertised as a solution on the news. As someone who is clumsy and easily distracted, I have such a kitchen knife. They are commonly available. It works absolutely fine and it has three times minimised an injury that would have been nasty because I am an easily-distracted tired old idiot.…

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Re: Online Safety Act: What went wrong?

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard of MPs making (moronic) suggestions such as selling kitchen knives without the point on it. I've literally seen this advertised as a solution on the news. As someone who is clumsy and easily distracted, I have such a kitchen knife. They are commonly available. It works absolutely fine and it has three times minimised an injury that would have been nasty because I am an easily-distracted tired old idiot.…

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