Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dwl: Dwm for Wayland

codeberg.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 87 posts

Re: Dwl: Dwm for Wayland

#51

Post by mystifyingpoi »

blurbleblurble wrote: post #29
temp0826 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland has been around for 15+ years now and I've been using it daily for probably 10. At this point I have to assume comments like this are unserious.

It's probably a distro thing. I'm on a rolling release distro (arch) and I've been using wayland on arch and it's worked great. There are still some things I struggle with, but for ~7 years I've been using wayland without major issue. Things iron themselves out pretty quickly these days when you're using a rolling release distro. This is not so for popos/ubuntu/debian etc.

I don't want to be rude, but "it's worked great" and "still some things I struggle with" need some clarification.

Re: Dwl: Dwm for Wayland

#52

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

pm215 wrote: post #12
ivanjermakov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you need Unicode for in a WM?

In an X11 window manager, the classic use case is "printing the title of the window in its titlebar". Programs like Firefox put the current tab's title in the titlebar text, which can have any random unicode in it.

Actually, that's an interesting question - in wayland, I think it's common to just say that windows have to draw their own ("client-side window decorations"), so the compositor could just... not handle the window titles at all?

Re: Dwl: Dwm for Wayland

#53

Post by dodomodo »

simlevesque wrote: post #31
dodomodo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to understand that I don't really care about the internals of my DE. The same of true for 95% of Linux users and 99.999% of general computer users, so when I see a huge amount of effort goes into basically seemingly pointless refactoring, instead of tackling issues that are actually important to users, it is disappointing to me. I just installed KDE Manjaro and guess what? It stills uses X, and no one has an…

Security. You said you did your research so I have to believe that you don't care about security. But most people care.

The threats models I have seen are easy enough to deal with inside the X ecosystem. And investing all your resources into a new system that is not backward compatible is something no serious security person would do as it leaves your existing users vulnerable

Re: Dwl: Dwm for Wayland

#54

Post by rcxdude »

mort96 wrote: post #50
hodgehog11 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you. Meanwhile, many other people have been encountering _serious_ issues for much of those 10 years. This is well documented. Downplaying the issues of other users is a great way to make people dislike the product.

And I encounter _serious_ issues when I use X. Neither is perfect, but this insistence that Wayland is "not ready" because it doesn't have certain people's pet features ignores the silent majority for whom it just works and works better than X ever did. This is not me downplaying those issues some people encounter in Wayland. But I think you're sort of doing the opposite. (And, Wayland is not a "product".)

Because wayland is 'ready' when X can be properly killed, i.e. wayland is working for essentially all users. As it stands a huge fraction of users have issues with it, because most users have at least one 'pet feature' which they are not willing to give up.

Re: Dwl: Dwm for Wayland

#55

Post by mort96 »

rcxdude wrote: post #54
mort96 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I encounter _serious_ issues when I use X. Neither is perfect, but this insistence that Wayland is "not ready" because it doesn't have certain people's pet features ignores the silent majority for whom it just works and works better than X ever did. This is not me downplaying those issues some people encounter in Wayland. But I think you're sort of doing the opposite. (And, Wayland is not a "product".)

Because wayland is 'ready' when X can be properly killed, i.e. wayland is working for essentially all users. As it stands a huge fraction of users have issues with it, because most users have at least one 'pet feature' which they are not willing to give up.

As far as I'm concerned, a technology being "ready" (for mainstream adoption or whatever) means that it works better than or equally well as what it's replacing for most people and at least "well enough" for a significant majority. As far as I can tell, we've been there for a while with Wayland. The vast majority of people don't have to care that they're on Wayland.

Re: Dwl: Dwm for Wayland

#56

Post by slackfan »

gf000 wrote: post #34
slackfan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X wasn't withering away, it was pointedly being poisoned.

Feel free to include any kind of source for that. Otherwise, it is just FUD.

Sure, the developer culture of the people working on X has been "This is too difficult/obscure/shitty therefore it should die." There have been repeated posts about this to various forums, news.ycombinator.com included. Refusal to accept fixes, as well as a full pivot of the project to a targeted sundown instead of any attempt to attract developers to the project. Sources: The X project itself, hackernews discussions, both in articles and in comments. It's not my job to educate you.

Re: Dwl: Dwm for Wayland

#57

Post by RGBCube »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #52
pm215 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an X11 window manager, the classic use case is "printing the title of the window in its titlebar". Programs like Firefox put the current tab's title in the titlebar text, which can have any random unicode in it.

Actually, that's an interesting question - in wayland, I think it's common to just say that windows have to draw their own ("client-side window decorations"), so the compositor could just... not handle the window titles at all?

Server-side declarations are a thing now & are used widely (in anything other than GNOME)

Re: Dwl: Dwm for Wayland

#59

Post by blurbleblurble »

mystifyingpoi wrote: post #51
blurbleblurble wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably a distro thing. I'm on a rolling release distro (arch) and I've been using wayland on arch and it's worked great. There are still some things I struggle with, but for ~7 years I've been using wayland without major issue. Things iron themselves out pretty quickly these days when you're using a rolling release distro. This is not so for popos/ubuntu/debian etc.

I don't want to be rude, but "it's worked great" and "still some things I struggle with" need some clarification.

The things I struggle with are very niche, like remote desktop via pipewire over ssh.

Day to day stuff is way better than x11. Remember how much fiddling used to be necessary to configure x11 for your specific devices? I've never once done that and I don't miss it at all.

By the way, pipewire is amazing.

Re: Dwl: Dwm for Wayland

#60

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

exiguus wrote: post #38
hodgehog11 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you. Meanwhile, many other people have been encountering _serious_ issues for much of those 10 years. This is well documented. Downplaying the issues of other users is a great way to make people dislike the product.

What are this issues beside VNC or ssh -X does not work? Or my Software Y (still) does not support Wayland?

Actually I don't think any of those are problems?

* VNC is covered by wayvnc (unless you're on GNOME or maybe? KDE, but those have their own implementations)

* ssh -X should be covered by waypipe

* application software should generally work in XWayland (which okay is a little cheaty but if it works it works)

The two pain points I'm currently aware of are:

* Unified vs fractured ecosystem: In practice, everyone on X11 used Xorg and every window manager and desktop environment had the same basic features because of it. You could always control the keyboard layout via setxkbmap, every screenshot tool worked everywhere, xrandr/arandr were always available to configure displays, etc. In Wayland there is never one answer to anything; not every compositor lets you configure the keyboard and if they do each one has their own way to do it, there are 3 different screenshot protocols (supposedly KDE and wlroots are converging so only GNOME will be doing their own thing but I'm not holding my breath), display configuration is completely up to compositor choice, etc.

* The accessibility story isn't there. There's work on it, so eventually the outcome will probably be "just throw out the a11y tools you're used to and switch to these new ones", but for now the current status is "they're working on it but it isn't there yet".

Post reply on HN