Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

livescience.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 238 posts

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#51

Post by isatty »

littlestymaar wrote: post #13
williamdclt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then they've made the claim that those 100 wolves in 2.2million acres has resulted in plants and fish returning? As opposed to their efforts doing nothing at all? They've studied it and came to these conclusions, yes. Have you studied it and come to different conclusions?

You're responding to someone who believe that omnivorous animals don't exist[1], so you can assume that they will disregard whatever biologists say and trust their feelings rather than reality. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44674445

Insane how they spout out nonsense as fact. Cats are obligate carnivores. They eat protein. End of story. Please do not feed your cat vegetables.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#52

Post by ForOldHack »

sarchertech wrote: post #20
mousethatroared wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's perfectly valid to question results that don't make sense, and the role of the supposed expert is to explain why it does. After all, off in a democracy an expert expects to be paid by taxpayers to make decisions that affect the taxpayer the expert should be, at the very least, be able to explain himself in an intelligible manner. Thats the bare minimum of expectations. I also expect the taxpayer funded exper…

>they expect me to explain themselves But the experts did explain themselves. They’ve published numerous studies on how small wolf populations impact the larger ecosystem. It’s not even that hard to understand. Yes Yellowstone is large, but there are a finite number of elk herds and the wolves move to follow and prey upon the elk herds. Wolf packs can kill 20 elk per year per wolf, there are 120 wolves inside the par…

Here on HN we are looking at the effects and beliefs of the people reading the studies? What effect does this have on us?

Many downvoted comments etc. ( and much thanks for explaining the population numbers!)

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#53

Post by [deleted] »

GlibMonkeyDeath wrote: post #48
sushibowl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, the science on this is far from settled. There is no consensus and the evidence in favor of a trophic cascade in Yellowstone came predominantly from two studies done by the same team/person. Later studies failed to replicate findings. Do wolves fix ecosystems? CSU study debunks claims about Yellowstone reintroduction https://eu.coloradoan.com/story/news/2024/02/09/colorado-sta... A good story: Media…

And this one from the National Park Service web site, funded by NSF: https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/ys-24-1-the-challenge-of-unde... TL;DR - the observed reduction of the elk herd correlated with wolf introduction, but also with an increase in cougars, grizzly bears, and even bison, all of which either reduce or compete with elk. Human hunting also added pressure, but that has been limited as the herd size reduced. I…

[deleted]

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#54

Post by chuckadams »

bmacho wrote: post #44
quickthrowman wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really promoting the philosophy of Leibnizian Optimism in 2025? I suggest reading Candide by Voltaire, first published 266 years as a critique to the philosophy you are currently espousing.

People: "If God, then why bad?"[0] Leibniz: "God and bad can coexist. E.g. we live in the best possible world."[1] Voltaire: "Here's a depiction of some fictional bad." I don't think Voltaire engaged meaningfully with Leibniz's argument. (I think that Leibniz is simply right tho, in the mathematical sense, so there isn't much room for Voltaire anyway.) [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil [1] : https:/…

I suspect that "being right in the mathematical sense" is the very thing that Voltaire was lampooning.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#55

Post by narcraft »

quickthrowman wrote: post #35
hagbard_c wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's incredible how much good we have done to ourselves in the past 250 years, and how much good we can do in the now and the future.

Are you really promoting the philosophy of Leibnizian Optimism in 2025? I suggest reading Candide by Voltaire, first published 266 years as a critique to the philosophy you are currently espousing.

We've come a long way in those 266 years: global population 10x'd, meanwhile the share of the population living in extreme poverty went from over 80% to nearly 8%, so not all optimism was misguided. Also there's a lot of room between despair and a Panglossian caricature, and I don't think acknowledging that a lot of good has happened in the past (and not necessarily suggesting it was all inevitable or automatic) rises to that caricature.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#56

Post by ceejayoz »

declan_roberts wrote: post #38

This is great news! Why doesn't fish and game just increase the number of elk tags they sell? There are multiple ways to reduce the elk population.

Humans hunt very differently than wolves. The impacts on elk behavior are thus potentially very different.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#59

Post by jeffbee »

rr808 wrote: post #57

I talked to a local who was friends with ranchers who now lose stock to wolves. They hate it. Its an interesting use case of local control, is the greater good more important than the people who live there?

Welfare ranchers grazing on BLM land? Yes.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#60

Post by mykowebhn »

rr808 wrote: post #57

I talked to a local who was friends with ranchers who now lose stock to wolves. They hate it. Its an interesting use case of local control, is the greater good more important than the people who live there?

Your question rephrased from an Indigenous People's perspective:

"is the greater good more important than the original people who lived there?"

Post reply on HN