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When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

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Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#51

Post by thaumasiotes »

secondcoming wrote: post #46
adastra22 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should never have been web assembly. WASM is the fulfillment of the dream that started with Java VM in the 90’s but never got realized. A performant, truly universal virtual machine for write-once, run anywhere deployment. The web part is a distraction IMHO.

Why did Java fail though, and why would wasm succeed when the underlying philosophy is the same?

I asked a number of times on HN why wasm was good when java applets, exactly the same thing, were bad. There was a vague feeling that java applets were insecure and that this would somehow not be an issue for wasm.

It's not just applets; we also had Flash, which was a huge success until it was suddenly killed.

As far as I can tell, the difference between java applets and Flash is that you, the user, have to install java onto your system to use applets, whereas to use Flash you have to install Flash into your browser. I guess that might explain why one became more popular than the other.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#52

Post by 3cats-in-a-coat »

secondcoming wrote: post #46
adastra22 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should never have been web assembly. WASM is the fulfillment of the dream that started with Java VM in the 90’s but never got realized. A performant, truly universal virtual machine for write-once, run anywhere deployment. The web part is a distraction IMHO.

Why did Java fail though, and why would wasm succeed when the underlying philosophy is the same?

Java didn't fail, it was replaced by the web to a large part, but remains strong not only as the original JVM, but the Android clone and .NET. As for why the clones... IP issues. Otherwise Java would dominate, like the web does.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#53

Post by WhereIsTheTruth »

9dev wrote: post #13
WhereIsTheTruth wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WASM is not a web scripting language Trying to shoehorn Rust as a web scripting language was your second mistake Your first mistake was to mix Rust, TypeScript and JavaScript only just to add logic to your HTML buttons I swear, things get worse every day on this planet

WASM enables things like running a 20 year old CAD engine written in C++ in the browser. It isn’t a scripting language, it’s a way to get high-performing native code into web apps with a sensible bridge to the JS engine. It gets us closer to the web as the universal platform.

Exactly, and the CAD engine doesn't need to know about nor access the DOM

> It gets us closer to the web as the universal platform.

As a target

I don't want a pseudo 'universal' platform owned by Big Tech; or by governments as a substitute

Google/Chrome controlled platform, no thanks

https://i.imgur.com/WfXEKSf.jpeg

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#54

Post by diffuse_l »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #51
secondcoming wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did Java fail though, and why would wasm succeed when the underlying philosophy is the same?

I asked a number of times on HN why wasm was good when java applets, exactly the same thing, were bad. There was a vague feeling that java applets were insecure and that this would somehow not be an issue for wasm. It's not just applets; we also had Flash, which was a huge success until it was suddenly killed. As far as I can tell, the difference between java applets and Flash is that you, the user, have to install j…

Flash was a security nightmare, with multiple vulnerabilities discovered regularly.

It was eventually killed because Apple decided it won't support it on the iPhone.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#55

Post by detaro »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #51
secondcoming wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did Java fail though, and why would wasm succeed when the underlying philosophy is the same?

I asked a number of times on HN why wasm was good when java applets, exactly the same thing, were bad. There was a vague feeling that java applets were insecure and that this would somehow not be an issue for wasm. It's not just applets; we also had Flash, which was a huge success until it was suddenly killed. As far as I can tell, the difference between java applets and Flash is that you, the user, have to install j…

I don't think "exactly the same thing" is accurate. And WASM has put more effort into sandboxing, both in the design (very limited interfaces outside the sandbox) and implementations (partially because we've just gotten a lot better at that as an industry).

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#56

Post by noosphr »

secondcoming wrote: post #46
adastra22 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should never have been web assembly. WASM is the fulfillment of the dream that started with Java VM in the 90’s but never got realized. A performant, truly universal virtual machine for write-once, run anywhere deployment. The web part is a distraction IMHO.

Why did Java fail though, and why would wasm succeed when the underlying philosophy is the same?

High level and opinionated. The jvm bytecode is much closer to wasm than Java ever was.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#57

Post by adastra22 »

noosphr wrote: post #56
secondcoming wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did Java fail though, and why would wasm succeed when the underlying philosophy is the same?

High level and opinionated. The jvm bytecode is much closer to wasm than Java ever was.

To expand on this, WASM is closer to LLVM bytecode vs Java VM which is really designed around what the Java programming language needs.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#58

Post by adastra22 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #51
secondcoming wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did Java fail though, and why would wasm succeed when the underlying philosophy is the same?

I asked a number of times on HN why wasm was good when java applets, exactly the same thing, were bad. There was a vague feeling that java applets were insecure and that this would somehow not be an issue for wasm. It's not just applets; we also had Flash, which was a huge success until it was suddenly killed. As far as I can tell, the difference between java applets and Flash is that you, the user, have to install j…

They are vastly different. The WASM is much more low level, and supports a wider range of program types, including low level embedded stuff.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#59

Post by austin-cheney »

9dev wrote: post #13
WhereIsTheTruth wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WASM is not a web scripting language Trying to shoehorn Rust as a web scripting language was your second mistake Your first mistake was to mix Rust, TypeScript and JavaScript only just to add logic to your HTML buttons I swear, things get worse every day on this planet

WASM enables things like running a 20 year old CAD engine written in C++ in the browser. It isn’t a scripting language, it’s a way to get high-performing native code into web apps with a sensible bridge to the JS engine. It gets us closer to the web as the universal platform.

The biggest problem solved by WASM is runtime portability. For security reasons many users and organizations will not download or install untrusted binaries. WASM provides a safer alternative in an often temporary way. The universal nature is an unintended byproduct of a naive sandbox, though still wonderful.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#60

Post by tlb »

3cats-in-a-coat wrote: post #50
apatheticonion wrote: post #41

The web is a platform that has so much unrealized potential that is absolutely wasted. Wasm is the perfect example of this - it has the potential to revolutionize web (and desktop GUI) development but it hasn't progressed beyond niche single threaded use cases in basically 10 years.

Give me one thing that your theoretical WASM can "revolutionize". Aside from more efficient covert crypto mining on shady sites.

I use it for a web version of some robotics simulation & visualization software I wrote in C++. It normally runs on as an app on Mac or Linux, but compiling to WASM lets me show public interactive demos.

Before WASM, the options were:

- require everyone to install an app to see visualizations

- just show canned videos of visualizations

- write and maintain a parallel Javascript version

Demo at https://throbol.com/sheet/examples/humanoid_walking.tb

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