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Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

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Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#51

Post by drjasonharrison »

foolswisdom wrote: post #47
FollowingTheDao wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really because this might raise the chances of certain cancer in certain people. Microbially produced imidazole propionate impairs prostate cancer progression through PDZK1 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39819421/ You really need to know your genetics to be certain, and make sure you have enough B6. Meat is very high in histidine so that is why this meat, without enough B6, will raise the risk of heart disease a…

Well, meat wasn't mentioned, unless fish counts.

Animal flesh wasn't explicitly mentioned, but was absent from the list of foods that would decrease atherosclerosis.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#52

Post by drjasonharrison »

elcritch wrote: post #26
nextos wrote: post #9

The same metabolite, imidazole propionate (ImP), was already found to be associated with diabetes and heart failure. See for example this study in Nature Communications (2020): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19589-w . I think the value of the current study in Nature is that "ImP administration to atherosclerosis-prone mice fed with chow diet was sufficient to induce atherosclerosis without altering the li…

Anyone know if there’s lab tests for ImP already? Is it a common or well known enough target?

Another paper describes how imidazole propionate serum levels were measured: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19589-w

"""Imidazole propionate serum measurements

ImP was quantified using ultra-performance liquid chromatography coupled to tandem mass spectrometry according to previous work. Briefly, serum samples were extracted with 3 volumes of ice-cold acetonitrile containing internal standards (13C3-labeled ImP and urocanate). After derivatization to butyl esters using 5% hydrochloric acid in butanol, the samples were separated on a C18 column using a gradient consisting of water and acetonitrile. Quantification was made using an external calibration curve16."""

So yes, but no.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#53

Post by NotGMan »

Modified3019 wrote: post #29
lkuty wrote: post #11

I wonder how this study can be reconciled with the carnivorous diet, which is apparently high in good fats and good cholesterol. There is also the notion of structured water and a deficient exclusion zone which could explain the presence of plaque in the vessels according to Thomas Cowan, for example. So, I'm not sure that the factors that prevent plaque formation are those indicated. Nutrition is a complex matter.

“Structured water”? I don’t know how to say this kinder than that you’ve been intellectually consuming trash, please pull yourself back.

You could've at least googled it.

Structured water is a real thing, not some hocus pocus.

It's in your blood vessels for example, it forms a thin layer at the edges.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#54

Post by FollowingTheDao »

lkuty wrote: post #11

I wonder how this study can be reconciled with the carnivorous diet, which is apparently high in good fats and good cholesterol. There is also the notion of structured water and a deficient exclusion zone which could explain the presence of plaque in the vessels according to Thomas Cowan, for example. So, I'm not sure that the factors that prevent plaque formation are those indicated. Nutrition is a complex matter.

>I wonder how this study can be reconciled with the carnivorous diet,

It cannot. Well mostly. As I said, heart disease when eating high meat diets will only be risky for those people with the wrong genetics, mostly if you have disorders of B6 metabolism, carnivore will be bad for you.

The plaques are also formed by lipid oxidation so oxidative stress plays a role as well.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#55

Post by slashdev »

NotGMan wrote: post #53
Modified3019 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Structured water”? I don’t know how to say this kinder than that you’ve been intellectually consuming trash, please pull yourself back.

You could've at least googled it. Structured water is a real thing, not some hocus pocus. It's in your blood vessels for example, it forms a thin layer at the edges.

It’s mostly nonsense

https://youtu.be/Q6FknMOlU_w?si=8eyTIE-HeEulHNZO

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#56

Post by tolerance »

drjasonharrison wrote: post #50
tolerance wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll do you one better "When Fuster presented the project in 2010, he noted how difficult it is to diagnose cardiovascular problems early and how simple it is to prevent them, with measures such as exercising, following a healthy diet, and not smoking."

LOL. It's easy to recommend, or even prescribe, exercise, eating more fruits and vegetables, and smoking cessation. It is much harder to get people to change their habits and lifestyles.

Yes Dr., precisely. Hence the billion-dollar industry that evades such persuasion.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#57

Post by rendaw »

slibhb wrote: post #27
pretzellogician wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So it's not correct to wave it all away and say that it's all random bacterial infections That is not what I said (per my comment "Yes, sure, lifestyle has something to do with any or all of these.") But it seems likely we'll find that lifestyle and diet are not the only cause, maybe not even the primary one. >>> When Fuster presented the project in 2010, he noted how difficult it is to diagnose cardiovascular probl…

> That is not what I said (per my comment "Yes, sure, lifestyle has something to do with any or all of these.") But it seems likely we'll find that lifestyle and diet are not the only cause, maybe not even the primary one. What would it even mean for lifestyle choices to directly cause some condition? Attributing causation is largely subjective (up to a point). It's like saying "flipping the light switch didn't turn…

> What would it even mean for lifestyle choices to directly cause some condition?

Eating a diet largely of white rice directly causes beriberi. At least 9/10 people will get beriberi if they eat a diet that's mostly white rice. The median human body needs a certain amount of thiamine to operate properly, and without that certain body functions will cease to occur properly.

Eating too much spinach will cause kidney stones, but by exacerbating a different underlying cause (not directly). 9/10 people will not get kidney stones by eating too much spinach. Making the lifestyle choice to eat smaller amounts of spinach than the general population will protect against kidney stones, but it doesn't mean that spinach is bad to eat.

Without knowing the difference in bodily makeup that allows spinach to influence the occurrence of kidney stones, doctors will vilify spinach. But once the bodily factor that causes this will known, they'll either be able to treat that or recommend lifestyle (diet) changes specifically to the people who have that mutation, rather than vilifying spinach in general.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#58

Post by aitchnyu »

TuringTourist wrote: post #22
Aurornis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Massively. Changing diet is about the only realistic way to elicit long-term changes in the microbiome. Even taking probiotics doesn't last very long. There's a lot of questionable microbiome science that hasn't been replicated. You can find a lot of studies that say something changes the microbiome, but it's almost always a single short-term observational study on a small group of people. Realistically, increasing v…

What is your definition of processed food? Are potatoes processed because they are cleaned? Is chicken breast processed because the chicken is plucked? Is vinegar processed because it has undergone a chemical transformation via fermentation? Are potato chips processed because they are sliced potatoes fried in oil? Are fried plantains processed because they are sliced plantains fried in oil? I do not mean to come acro…

People say processed food when they mean ultraprocessed food. Your examples are textbook processed foods.

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-...

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#59

Post by specialist »

TuringTourist wrote: post #22
Aurornis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Massively. Changing diet is about the only realistic way to elicit long-term changes in the microbiome. Even taking probiotics doesn't last very long. There's a lot of questionable microbiome science that hasn't been replicated. You can find a lot of studies that say something changes the microbiome, but it's almost always a single short-term observational study on a small group of people. Realistically, increasing v…

What is your definition of processed food? Are potatoes processed because they are cleaned? Is chicken breast processed because the chicken is plucked? Is vinegar processed because it has undergone a chemical transformation via fermentation? Are potato chips processed because they are sliced potatoes fried in oil? Are fried plantains processed because they are sliced plantains fried in oil? I do not mean to come acro…

It's hard to capture heuristics with a meme.

FWIW: I avoid added sugar (sweeteners), empty calories.

eg Pre-made spaghetti sauce has sugar, so I make my own. Can of costco tomato sauce, garlic, italian herbs, garlic, oil, garlic, pinch of salt & pepper. Then I add some garlic.

eg I use plain greek yogurt in my smoothies. Flavored yogurt means added sugar. I can add my own flavors.

In my house, we make a distinction between "snacks" (food in-between meals) and "treats". I mosdef crave potato chips, doughnuts, cake, candy, etc. To better moderate, I don't keep any of those "empty" calories at home.

YMMV. IIRC, type-2 diabetics use artificial sweeteners. I'm not a doctor and can't guess what's best for anyone else.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#60

Post by lithocarpus »

TuringTourist wrote: post #22
Aurornis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Massively. Changing diet is about the only realistic way to elicit long-term changes in the microbiome. Even taking probiotics doesn't last very long. There's a lot of questionable microbiome science that hasn't been replicated. You can find a lot of studies that say something changes the microbiome, but it's almost always a single short-term observational study on a small group of people. Realistically, increasing v…

What is your definition of processed food? Are potatoes processed because they are cleaned? Is chicken breast processed because the chicken is plucked? Is vinegar processed because it has undergone a chemical transformation via fermentation? Are potato chips processed because they are sliced potatoes fried in oil? Are fried plantains processed because they are sliced plantains fried in oil? I do not mean to come acro…

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