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Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

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Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#51

Post by CubsFan1060 »

wustep wrote: post #48
CubsFan1060 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it helps, this has been one of the most infuriating things for me in recent memory. I don't understand why this wasn't opt-in.

thanks, will fwd to team you're talking about the desktop notification in particular, right?

Yeah. I mean, the rest is concerning. But one day it just started popping up every time I went into a meeting. Which, of course, was exactly the time that I was busy in a meeting, and didn't have time to dig through settings to figure out how to turn it off.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#52

Post by chaps »

wustep wrote: post #41

Hey! 1. Notion records audio only during your use of the Meeting Notes feature. Here are the docs: https://www.notion.com/help/ai-meeting-notes 2. Notion desktop app has notifications about meetings that ask you if you want to use Meeting Notes, it recognizes this by detecting that your microphone is on (i.e. it does not listen to audio coming from your microphone). This feature is a setting in preferences btw, under…

Does any of that microphone detection stuff send anything over the network to Notion to indicate that the check was done, plus the check's results?

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#53

Post by jitl »

chinathrow wrote: post #50
jitl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To elaborate: The Notion desktop app will observe if there is a process running on your computer that is actively using your microphone, such as Zoom. Notion does not and cannot listen to the audio coming from your microphone ambiently or snoop on the signal received by another application. This detection is done purely based on the existing of a process using your microphone, not on the audio coming from the microph…

Make it opt-in and this would be not an issue.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in.

A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times.

EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide user agency for these features in-line during first use or find a different balance point.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#54

Post by pat64 »

As someone who has built an app that detects calls and meetings, this isn’t as nefarious as you’re making it out to be.

You can detect patterns of hardware use that suggest you’re in a meeting without actually eavesdropping on an actual audio stream of any kind.

Basically is some app using the mic hardware for something?? Likely a meeting so.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#55

Post by armedgorilla »

untech wrote: post #10

I’ve come to hate Notion with passion because of its abysmal performance, but I still pay for it for my small business. My non-technical employees use it as a database for clients, tasks, payments etc. I tried to research replacements several times, and still haven’t found anything good. Sometimes I wonder if I should build my own.

I'm in the same boat. Since they decided to bundle in their AI features with their core product (at only a 30% price increase!), I've been looking for an exist route. But finding a single collaborative text editor + database designer replacement has been difficult.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#56

Post by dakiol »

jitl wrote: post #45
wustep wrote: post #41

Hey! 1. Notion records audio only during your use of the Meeting Notes feature. Here are the docs: https://www.notion.com/help/ai-meeting-notes 2. Notion desktop app has notifications about meetings that ask you if you want to use Meeting Notes, it recognizes this by detecting that your microphone is on (i.e. it does not listen to audio coming from your microphone). This feature is a setting in preferences btw, under…

To elaborate: The Notion desktop app will observe if there is a process running on your computer that is actively using your microphone, such as Zoom. Notion does not and cannot listen to the audio coming from your microphone ambiently or snoop on the signal received by another application. This detection is done purely based on the existing of a process using your microphone, not on the audio coming from the microph…

Thanks for the explanation. I was about to install Notion Desktop today. I Won’t install it.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#57

Post by chinathrow »

jitl wrote: post #53
chinathrow wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make it opt-in and this would be not an issue.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

Your new feature is privacy invading. It's none of your business to detect if someones mic is on unless they invite you to do that.

What is so hard about that?

> Our PMs don't like making things opt-in.

Lamest excuse ever.

I wouldn't be surprised if you phoned back home about that mic activation - do you?

I recently joined an org where Notion is in use - I will actively lobby them to not install the desktop app, at all or to quit Notion alltogether.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#58

Post by FuriouslyAdrift »

jitl wrote: post #53
chinathrow wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make it opt-in and this would be not an issue.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

Make a pop-up with the opt-in/out for all the features on first launch with everything defaulted to on so people can turn features off and get notified that such features exist. You can also use this to gather metrics on what features people are actually interested in.

Good compromise.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#59

Post by jitl »

chaps wrote: post #52
wustep wrote: post #41

Hey! 1. Notion records audio only during your use of the Meeting Notes feature. Here are the docs: https://www.notion.com/help/ai-meeting-notes 2. Notion desktop app has notifications about meetings that ask you if you want to use Meeting Notes, it recognizes this by detecting that your microphone is on (i.e. it does not listen to audio coming from your microphone). This feature is a setting in preferences btw, under…

Does any of that microphone detection stuff send anything over the network to Notion to indicate that the check was done, plus the check's results?

let me look

EDIT: no, there's no transmission of logs or analytics events besides a check to see if the feature is enabled. We only transmit some data if you ask Notion to record.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#60

Post by XCabbage »

dakiol wrote: post #56
jitl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To elaborate: The Notion desktop app will observe if there is a process running on your computer that is actively using your microphone, such as Zoom. Notion does not and cannot listen to the audio coming from your microphone ambiently or snoop on the signal received by another application. This detection is done purely based on the existing of a process using your microphone, not on the audio coming from the microph…

Thanks for the explanation. I was about to install Notion Desktop today. I Won’t install it.

Why? I don't understand the objection to this. If the app was sending off any data to Notion without consent, that would obviously be a privacy issue, but why is it a problem for a desktop app to simply check if your mic is being used and offer to record?
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