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American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

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Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#51

Post by Spivak »

Figs wrote: post #42
givemeethekeys wrote: post #8

Are institutions elsewhere massively increasing funding and positions? Aren't all the non-bankruptible tuition fees providing plenty of funding already? Where's that money going? The football team?

> Aren't all the non-bankruptible tuition fees providing plenty of funding already? No. Having worked in academia for years, most of my funding came from the NSF. Sometimes it was from the state government, or private organizations partnering with us instead. Usually the university took a 50%+ cut of the grants we got as "overhead" too...

Can confirm, universities aren't giving money to researchers- they're actually taking a cut of the grants that actually fund research. They don't even pay salaries, that's only in exchange for teaching hours.

Thankfully, since grants started putting caps on how much the university is allowed to take I haven't seen a 50% overhead cut in a long time. It's still a pretty significant chunk though.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#52

Post by specialist »

ribosometronome wrote: post #17
the_snooze wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where that money is going, but from my own experience, research at universities really isn't supported by tuition money. At least in STEM, PhD students are paid for by grants and contracts that their advisors secured from sources like NSF, DARPA, NIH, NSA, etc. Those are the people actually execute the research. You might want to say tuition should support research, but the reality is that it doesn't.

Why would we want tuition to support research?

Universities produce scholarship. That's expensive.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#53

Post by hayst4ck »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #3

This is good for the world. Hyper concentration of talent reduces diversity.

The economic concept of economies of scale dictates that the more researchers there are in one location, the more efficiently they are likely able to research.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#54

Post by mikeocool »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #8

Are institutions elsewhere massively increasing funding and positions? Aren't all the non-bankruptible tuition fees providing plenty of funding already? Where's that money going? The football team?

Given all that university students are asked to pay for already, it would seem rather odd to ask them to also pay for the world's cancer research.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#56

Post by api »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #8

Are institutions elsewhere massively increasing funding and positions? Aren't all the non-bankruptible tuition fees providing plenty of funding already? Where's that money going? The football team?

AFAIK the massive influx of cash into universities for the last 30 years or so has gone into administration, which is basically a jobs program, not academics.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#57

Post by ViscountPenguin »

linotype wrote: post #32
magicalhippo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gov't here in Norway put $10 million on the table[1] for 2026 as a response to what's going on in the US. Due to reasons they can't direct it solely at US researchers, but the intent is there: The minister has followed the recent developments in the United States closely: "Academic freedom is under pressure in the United States, and it is an unpredictable situation for many researchers in what has been the world'…

That’s like a couple of DoE grants in the US.

Norway is a small (albeit wealthy) country. For conparables, you want to keep an eye on EU and Chinese science funding, and see if they're taking advantage of it. Norway is a good existence proof of countries reacting to this though.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#58

Post by rainsford »

andsoitis wrote: post #4

> Many of the most valuable scientific organizations in the world, including NOAA, NASA, the NSF, the CDC, the EPA, and the FDA, I don’t dismiss the premise of the article and I think it is a shame how these organizations are being impacted, but I don’t know that these are the best exemplars of cutting edge science being shut down that will lead to America’s downfall from its scientific perch.

Why do you believe those aren't good examples of cutting edge science funding? I get the stereotype that government organizations of all types are just stodgy bureaucrats stuck a few decades in the past, but the reality at least in the US in the year 2025 is that truly cutting edge science is not obviously being funded at any significant scale anywhere but government.

The world of privately funded research organizations like Bell Labs is long gone, with companies being barely able to look past the next quarter never mind being willing to invest in long term research that may not pay off for a few decades, if it pays off at all. And by definition most cutting edge science has that kind of financial time horizon. If there was an obvious, short term path to directly benefiting those conducting it, it's probably not very cutting edge at all and closer to engineering than actual scientific research. Not that there is anything wrong with that, we need engineering investment too. But it's not a replacement for science research.

I think a lot of people who scoff at the idea of government being on the cutting edge of science research don't understand how that research is being conducted. Sure, some of it is done by actual government employees, but especially for organizations like the NSF, the bulk of the research is being done by organizations and individuals outside of government who are simply given a check to look into things that might not immediately pay off or which have major societal benefit but no real path to commercial payoff.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#59

Post by foxglacier »

magicalhippo wrote: post #22
givemeethekeys wrote: post #8

Are institutions elsewhere massively increasing funding and positions? Aren't all the non-bankruptible tuition fees providing plenty of funding already? Where's that money going? The football team?

The gov't here in Norway put $10 million on the table[1] for 2026 as a response to what's going on in the US. Due to reasons they can't direct it solely at US researchers, but the intent is there: The minister has followed the recent developments in the United States closely: "Academic freedom is under pressure in the United States, and it is an unpredictable situation for many researchers in what has been the world'…

Yea that's practically nothing, even accounting for your population. It's $2/person compared to NASA's pre-cut budget of about $80/person/year. Where are all these other countries that might pick up the slack? Seems nobody else in the world wants to pay for science. They might complain about American science funding cuts but are happy to keep their already tiny science budgets tiny.

Norway's overall science budget is $1 billion per year, or $200/person/year. US's was $200 billion/year or $600/person/year. So Norway isn't really pulling its weight.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#60

Post by mensetmanusman »

behringer wrote: post #9
tyre wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: concentration of talent is incredibly valuable for humankind.

They're concentrating in China. It's just that the US won't be that location of talent.

Good, China needs talent not wasted on optimizing a police state.
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