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Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

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Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#51
post #10

Wow, its almost like deflationary currency isn't a good idea. Who would have thought? Certainly, uh, most economists.

This article has nothing to do with the inflationary or deflationary nature of the currency, this is a problem solely caused by the block size limit, which other cryptocurrencies are free from and don't worry about.

It has everything to do with the deflationary nature of the currency. Its stated so right in their potential solutions:

> Tail emission: stop halvings and allow infinite inflation

The reality that no one wants to talk about is that Bitcoin is screwed and there's no way out of it, because of bad fundamental design.

Increasing block size will only work to solve the problem of Bitcoin's Security Budget if it brings in more usage/transactions; but Bitcoin's adherence to its traditionalist values is what led to the creation of a billion other cryptocurrencies to solve this exact problem, they do solve it, and they experience significantly higher transaction volume as a result. There's no evidence that volume is going to come back to Bitcoin. On the contrary; volume is down on Bitcoin, significantly, the usage these days looks more like 2018/2019. Its not coming back.

It also doesn't help that crypto, in general, is a dying technology.

> Burning dormant coins (e.g., Satoshi’s)

The fact that this is suggested, even as the last possible solution, should scream volumes about where this project and Bitcoin is at. This possibility shouldn't even be on this list. Not only would it do all the things the article says it would do (violate property rights, incite riots); it wouldn't even solve the problem. It would just buy a few years of time.

But as long as the miners have to buy their mining equipment using inflationary US Dollars; they're screwed. The only thing that would keep it going is growth in the usage of the currency, but (1) all growth stops eventually, and (2) even if it didn't, Bitcoin seems designed from day one to inhibit its own growth, because it was designed by an idiot crypto-maxy anarchist teenager who made the predictable software engineer mistake of thinking skill in compsci makes you skilled at everything.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#52
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin: lets make it so a medium grade computer and internet connection by 2008’s midrange standards works. Forever. Solana: let’s make it so that enthusiast grade computers and internet connectivity by 2024’s high range standard works. Sometimes. But keep pushing.

Is solana even decentralized? I thought it was like ripple. I haven't been paying too much attention though.

There are unaffiliated nodes, you can run your own validator and stake independently.

This decentralizes transaction processing and arbitrary code execution.

Client upgrades and hard forks are largely centralized. This isn’t one and the same with the transaction processing nodes compared to bitcoin.

Saying centralized without context is reductive and doesn’t tell much though. I would like all aspects less centralized though.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#53
post #7

According to ChatGPT, Bitcoin market cap is $2T while the cost to carry out a 51% attack is $4B. If correct, it seems a little imbalanced.

First, that figure is way off. Marathon alone has a market cap over $4B and controls less than 5% of the total hash rate. Second, the system only seems vulnerable if you ignore economic incentives. A 51% attack isn't just technically difficult - it's economically irrational. Pulling it off would cost billions, and even then, there's no clear way to profit from it. The only scenario where it makes sense is a non-econo…

I guess all of these arguments have existed since the beginning of Bitcoin (51% attack, miner centralization, supply chain centralization, etc). What we do know is while it theoretically could happen it hasn't happened yet.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#54
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your ChatGPT generated argument and raise you my DeepSeek generated rebuttal: 1. The $4B "Cost" Is Fundamentally Misinterpreted: * It's Not a "Cost" Like Buying an Asset: The $4B figure (if accurate) typically refers to the theoretical short-term cost to rent sufficient hashrate to perform a temporary attack. This does not mean you can "buy" control of Bitcoin for $4B. * Acquisition Cost vs. Rental Cost: Actual…

No one got time to read 15 paragraphs of AI slop

That's the point. It was written in response to AI slop in the first place. If you had the time to read the first sentence you'd understood that.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#55
post #41

So the two questions that I cannot see answered there. How much does the security budget need to be? When is it projected to drop below that? The closest they come to addressing that seems to be a quote saying "We might have only two halvings left before this becomes a serious issue." So 8 years-ish? The original intention was to fund the network entirely off fees eventually. I don't think there was a stated expectat…

The big issue is the fork and fixing it represents a decision about who has and hasn't gotten paid so the fork is quite sticky for those who's transactions do not appear on the post attack branch to want to stick the the attacked branch. This was relatively easy when they did it in the early days of ETH after the DAO hack but AFAIK there's no on chain mechanism for a similar hard fork to happen to BTC. Even in ETH I'd be surprised if a similar response happened to a similar level of attack, voting power on EIPs was significantly more concentrated back in 2016.

Any way you slice it there's still a centralization of power of when to activate any of these defense mechanisms.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#56
post #33

Lol total garbage people have been whining about the blocks regularly being EMPTY now, a huge % of transactions just occur off chain on exchanges/lightning/etc. There are no 100 dollar fees you can basically do everything for basically free. https://mempool.space/ look, you can see how many blocks aren't filled lol. This piece is literally just garbage. Big blockers are scam artists.

On the lightning network, fees are distributed to rent-seeking intermediaries instead of miners, yet the network is still dependent on the security from the miners. The lightning network is parasitic to bitcoin. Blocks are empty because people decided that bitcoin was not a feasible means of transaction nearly a decade ago during the blocksize war.

If you think peers on the Lightning network are “rent-seeking” intermediaries then you don’t understand what Lightning is. Peers allow us to circumvent the need for every counterparty to make a channel with one another and allow us to maintain privacy via onion routing. There’s no rent seeking here. Nodes pay fees to one another because these benefits come at the cost of liquidity for participating routing nodes.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#57

According to ChatGPT, Bitcoin market cap is $2T while the cost to carry out a 51% attack is $4B. If correct, it seems a little imbalanced.

Just for the energy: Current hash rate is around 995m TH/s[1]. The best off the shelf miner on the market is the S21 which can hash at ~200 TH/s [2]. Assuming all of the hash rate comprised of S21s without operational inefficiency, we would have ~4,975,000 S21s hashing on the network. They also use up about 16.67 J/TH , which is 3334 J for 200TH. This is what’s expended per second.

The average time to mine a block is 10 minutes so let’s convert our J spent per block for one miner : 33346010 ‎ = 2,000,400. With about 4m of these, that’s about 8 trillion joules per block. Now if we divide that by 3.6m to get kWh, we’re back around ~2m kWh per block. Texas is about 15 cents per kWh so we get about $300k spent per block.

To 51% attack, we’d need to spend a little bit more than that. With full competition, and an attempt to mine empty blocks, it would take about $48m to attack the network for a day (144 blocks). And that’s just back of the envelope math.

Realistically, not everyone has the latest and greatest in mining equipment and probably burn more money with less efficient miners.

And all this is on top of the capex required to acquire 4m S21s, which would be around $10B at around $3k a pop.

[1] https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_network_hash_rate

[2] https://hashrateindex.com/rigs/bitmain-antminer-s21+

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#58
post #41

So the two questions that I cannot see answered there. How much does the security budget need to be? When is it projected to drop below that? The closest they come to addressing that seems to be a quote saying "We might have only two halvings left before this becomes a serious issue." So 8 years-ish? The original intention was to fund the network entirely off fees eventually. I don't think there was a stated expectat…

How much really has to be measured with respect to a motivated attacker. If no one wants to attack it, it could stay low for a long time. The ideal answer would be to keep the hash rate as high as possible for as long as possible. With the appreciation of the asset, people would think the risk of an attack is growing higher but an attacker can only do so much with 51%.

They can either double spend by reversing the chain (in which case they’d have to accumulate enough bitcoin for to make it worthwhile in the first place) or they can mine empty blocks and prevent any transactions from being processed.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#59
post #48

Lol total garbage people have been whining about the blocks regularly being EMPTY now, a huge % of transactions just occur off chain on exchanges/lightning/etc. There are no 100 dollar fees you can basically do everything for basically free. https://mempool.space/ look, you can see how many blocks aren't filled lol. This piece is literally just garbage. Big blockers are scam artists.

The 100$ fee per transaction is what it would cost to sustain current miner revenue without mining reward (ie. mining revenue derived somewhat invisibly from money supply increase). The piece is not garbage, but a thoughtful introduction to a problem that's approaching inexorably.

> sustain current miner revenue

Why should this be the goal?

I'm sure miners would love to see their revenue never decrease, but this isn't a problem for users or for the security of the network. Block reward does not need to remain at or above current levels forever; it just needs to remain predictable from block to block. Difficulty adjustment works both up and down, even if we've only seen it go up so far. The 51% risk is overblown - the network is significantly overprotected right now, and we could stand to lose a few orders of magnitude without jeopardizing security/availability. Plus, it might even placate the energy consumption doomsayers.

As GP notes, empty blocks are now common, which is in fact a bigger risk in a low-subsidy environment. Maybe we should instead reduce minrelaytxfee to 0.1 sat/vB to incentivize full blocks.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#60
I like that no one brings up the question that Bitcoin is not really decentralized. Most of the Core devs are paid by a company (iirc it was Blockstream but might've changed), and ultimately, the paycheck they receive dictates which direction the most used Bitcoin wallet should go, which dictates the direction of the project as a whole.

There were several attempts of merging important BIPs, which were rejected because some developers thought it wasn't in line with the direction their employer wanted.

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