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Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

gamingonlinux.com

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Re: Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

#51

Post by Modified3019 »

1. The article is clickbait, leaving out important but complicated context of what sort of process is happening. If you want to understand what’s actually going on, watch this instead of getting alarmed at the article title: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XgabGSI82M0

2. These kind of change proposals are just that. Proposals only, by whoever wants to make one. Fedora is not about to suddenly drop 32bit support. Proposals are for discussion and consideration of how changes would affect things, they are not acceptance of the change or even a commitment to do so.

3. The comment on shutting down from the Bazzite founder is about what would happen if the proposal were accepted right now. Which isn’t happening. Outlining the consequences of a proposal is exactly what needs to happen. Dropping 32bit support would be catastrophic to multiple projects. But it’s not happening right now, and Bazzite is not about to shut down.

4. Things on both Fedora and Bazzite’s side are taking place such that removing 32bit support is reasonable and doesn’t break everything. This will take some time.

5. The proposal was badly worded, and is being redone.

For fucks sake.

Re: Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

#52

Post by em-bee »

Modified3019 wrote: post #51

1. The article is clickbait, leaving out important but complicated context of what sort of process is happening. If you want to understand what’s actually going on, watch this instead of getting alarmed at the article title: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XgabGSI82M0 2. These kind of change proposals are just that. Proposals only, by whoever wants to make one. Fedora is not about to suddenly drop 32bit support. Propos…

but these points were obvious from the start. ubuntu went through that before and did it right the first time. like they actually talked to valve about it. this proposal was not thought through and should not have been made in this form in the first place. i am not involved with these decisions (but i use fedora and would be affected) but i would get annoyed if people kept making proposals that they don't think through. therefore i think the response is justified, because how otherwise do you stop bad proposals?

Re: Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

#53

Post by em-bee »

codedokode wrote: post #36

What happens to old software? How do you run 32-bit Linux apps? How do you run 32-bit Windows apps like VST plugins (audio effects)?

you (fedora that is) build the libraries needed by 32-bit application. you stop building everything else, but you keep multilib support. that's what this proposal got wrong. it should have been only about stopping to build the 10.000 packages that nobody needs for 32-bit support.

Re: Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

#54

Post by fpoling »

tapoxi wrote: post #43
fpoling wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use VM to run old distros or old Windows.

You don't need a VM, just a container. Steam runs all games in containers anyway: https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/b...

Containers will not help if the kernel will not run 32-bit binaries.

Re: Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

#55

Post by Modified3019 »

em-bee wrote: post #52
Modified3019 wrote: post #51

1. The article is clickbait, leaving out important but complicated context of what sort of process is happening. If you want to understand what’s actually going on, watch this instead of getting alarmed at the article title: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XgabGSI82M0 2. These kind of change proposals are just that. Proposals only, by whoever wants to make one. Fedora is not about to suddenly drop 32bit support. Propos…

but these points were obvious from the start. ubuntu went through that before and did it right the first time. like they actually talked to valve about it. this proposal was not thought through and should not have been made in this form in the first place. i am not involved with these decisions (but i use fedora and would be affected) but i would get annoyed if people kept making proposals that they don't think throu…

I’m not against the pushback on the poorly made proposal.

I’m against people (in this very thread) taking the resulting out of context comments from Bazzite as a sign that the project is fickle or doomed.

Re: Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

#56

Post by em-bee »

Modified3019 wrote: post #55
em-bee wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but these points were obvious from the start. ubuntu went through that before and did it right the first time. like they actually talked to valve about it. this proposal was not thought through and should not have been made in this form in the first place. i am not involved with these decisions (but i use fedora and would be affected) but i would get annoyed if people kept making proposals that they don't think throu…

I’m not against the pushback on the poorly made proposal. I’m against people (in this very thread) taking the resulting out of context comments from Bazzite as a sign that the project is fickle or doomed.

ah, sorry, i didn't read that from your comment. yes, i agree, that's a weird conclusion

Re: Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

#57

Post by tapoxi »

fpoling wrote: post #54
tapoxi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a VM, just a container. Steam runs all games in containers anyway: https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/b...

Containers will not help if the kernel will not run 32-bit binaries.

Why would the kernel not run 32-bit binaries? They're talking about removing libraries only, not removing 32-bit support from the kernel.

Re: Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

#58

Post by pantalaimon »

holowoodman wrote: post #32
rightbyte wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fundamental problem is that there are many different 5% groups and that you are very likely to be in some 5% groups. In some way I feel dropping 32bit is capitulation to bloat. I for one use 32bit libs in x86 32bit mode quite a lot to test software I build for memory bugs such that it works on actual 32bit systems.

32bit support isn't just bad bloat due to larger pointers. Only doing 32bit and not doing amd64/x86_64 is also leaving a lot of performance on the table: x86 traditionally has very few registers to work with, amd64 gives you quite a few more general purpose registers, so your hand-fiddled assembler will be faster, and if you use compiled code, your compiler will have an easier time with optimizations, faster function…

There is x32 if you don’t need more than 4 GiB address space but still want to use the benefits of amd64.

Gives you ~10% better performance due to better Cache efficiency

Re: Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

#59

Post by holowoodman »

pantalaimon wrote: post #58
holowoodman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

32bit support isn't just bad bloat due to larger pointers. Only doing 32bit and not doing amd64/x86_64 is also leaving a lot of performance on the table: x86 traditionally has very few registers to work with, amd64 gives you quite a few more general purpose registers, so your hand-fiddled assembler will be faster, and if you use compiled code, your compiler will have an easier time with optimizations, faster function…

There is x32 if you don’t need more than 4 GiB address space but still want to use the benefits of amd64. Gives you ~10% better performance due to better Cache efficiency

Yes, but that would be another set of libraries and another recompilation. Sticking with 32bit code is mostly to avoid that.

Re: Bazzite would shut down if Fedora goes ahead with removing 32-bit

#60

Post by arkx »

BearOso wrote: post #42
holowoodman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

32bit support isn't just bad bloat due to larger pointers. Only doing 32bit and not doing amd64/x86_64 is also leaving a lot of performance on the table: x86 traditionally has very few registers to work with, amd64 gives you quite a few more general purpose registers, so your hand-fiddled assembler will be faster, and if you use compiled code, your compiler will have an easier time with optimizations, faster function…

I don't think this is very much about modern projects. Developers want to use 64-bit. It's more that removing the libraries breaks legacy 32-bit stuff that simply can't be updated. The steam client should be upgraded, though. I understand it has to do with their ancient web view library not doing 64-bit, so they would have to change it and possibly mess up some of the layouts and overlays. But they went ahead and cha…

Isn't Steam (or more specifically steamwebhelper.exe) using Chromium Embedded Framework for web views? It's already a 64-bit process for me on Windows.

I also do wish they'd upgrade the client completely, but WoW64 isn't going anywhere. It's probably discussions like this on Linux side that would move their hand, if anything.

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