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2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

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Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#51

Post by floatrock »

giantg2 wrote: post #24
londons_explore wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed. Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries. Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds. That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to prov…

Seems like pumped hydro offers a nice compromise.

Most economically-suitable locations for pumped hydro have been built out already.

You can always use a ton more concrete and force new locations, but the best locations have already been utilized and scaling law of batteries has brought them to the point where they're more competitive than new hydro for this kind of use.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#52

Post by plorg »

giantg2 wrote: post #24
londons_explore wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed. Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries. Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds. That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to prov…

Seems like pumped hydro offers a nice compromise.

Sure, if you can site it.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#53

Post by rcxdude »

gred wrote: post #33

Why so many pages of "Recommendation: implement multi-factor authentication" and other IT security irrelevancies? Did they need to pad out the number of pages?

Infrastructure in general has pretty terrible security practices, so I won't bemoan someone finding a useful soapbox to remind them to shape up a bit, even if it isn't the core cause of this particular issue (and it's probably also a reaction to various rumours/speculation about a cyberattack).

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#54

Post by floatrock »

fuoqi wrote: post #9
matsemann wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the quote literally spells out it was market forces, not some instability in solar generation? Your other comment probably got flagged because it started with a huge straw man and had multiple unwarranted jabs in it.

Temporary negative prices have been caused by the renewable generation which exceeded the grid demand at the time, which then evolved into the nasty feedback loop caused by the reaction of renewable generation to those conditions. You simply do not get such situation with traditional generation, it's the direct consequence of the intermittent nature of renewables and its high ratio in the total generation. Also, have…

So an incredibly cheap source of supply exceeded the demand, and the market rules and some trips caused cascading failures.

Why is the problem the cheap source of supply rather than the market rules and incentives that made everything act the way it did?

Your comment suggests move back to good ol' expensive fossil generation instead of looking at how to bring the market rules up to date with evolving technologies.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#55

Post by z_rex »

londons_explore wrote: post #12
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #10

Reads very similar to some blackouts we had in Australia. Weakly connected grids with vast geographical distances leading to oscillations that took down the grid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout Completely solved with lithium based grid storage at key locations btw. This grid storage has also been massively profitable for it's owners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve#R…

> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed. Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries. Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds. That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to prov…

A spinning generator is not outputting 10x it's rated current over any significant amount of time. You can only add so much steam or fuel to a turbine, and the rotor has a lot of inertia, but not enough to account for 10X its rated capacity for a second. The electrical switchyards would trip nearly instantaneously if it's connected plant output 10X its rated input.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#56

Post by stephen_g »

shakow wrote: post #23
matsemann wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the quote literally spells out it was market forces, not some instability in solar generation? Your other comment probably got flagged because it started with a huge straw man and had multiple unwarranted jabs in it.

True, but the market moves fast because renewables (or, more precisely, wind & solar) move fast. There is not much fast trading to be done on a nuke/gas/coal/hydro powerplant ramping up or down, but there is a lot of instability (and thus market volatility) to be found in fast varying solar/wind conditions.

That's inaccurate on the whole though, because while those big generators can't move fast, demand can move fast! Which is a difficult problem to manage in baseload grids.

Renewables just change one set of challenges for another set, at the end of the day it's all manageable.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#57

Post by egberts1 »

z_rex wrote: post #55
londons_explore wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed. Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries. Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds. That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to prov…

A spinning generator is not outputting 10x it's rated current over any significant amount of time. You can only add so much steam or fuel to a turbine, and the rotor has a lot of inertia, but not enough to account for 10X its rated capacity for a second. The electrical switchyards would trip nearly instantaneously if it's connected plant output 10X its rated input.

You can if the load was 10x under max. before getting tripped.

Misaligned oscillation can occurs under ANY load.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#58

Post by _carbyau_ »

giantg2 wrote: post #32
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw the hornsdale battery linked above cost AUD$172 million and can provide 2000MW of equivalent inertia. Link: https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-ba... That equivalent inertia can only be done for short periods but that's exactly what grids need in stability - there's generally no lack of total generation, just a need to jump in and smooth out spikes. You can't build a dam for that price, nor…

You don't need to build a dam, you just need the pipes and pumps for an existing dam (or elevated natural basin).

I thought you needed two dams. One higher than the other. You pump water back and forth between the two to generate or capture energy.

Is it that common that dams are already existing in nearby-ish pairs with the sufficient height difference? And that we haven't done this already?

Doing this is good where we can. But it has geographical limitations. Batteries don't so much.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#59

Post by plorg »

Yeask wrote: post #30
baq wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The report goes to great lengths to avoid certain words or phrases. The market failed here, it didn’t price in risk of grid collapse correctly.

That is a simple and great explanation.

It's also just unfounded conspiracism and factually incorrect.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#60

Post by rocqua »

So, the problem was a local voltage oscilation, where the high voltages caused generators to shut off.

How do these oscilations start? I understand that voltage isn't necessarily equal across the network, where frequency is. But that only allows oscillating, it doesn't cause it. Is this a basis inductor capacitor oscillation? Is it the small delay in inverters between measuring voltage and regulating their output? (seems unlikely, given that renewables aren't blamed) or is there some other source of (delayed) feedback.

And why do generators cut off at a high voltage? Is it a signal of 'too much power'? Is it to protect the generator from some sort of damage?

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