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Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

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Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#51

Post by sorcerer-mar »

Bnichs wrote: post #49
sorcerer-mar wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're suggesting the government shared information that was verifiably false at the time it was shared? Can you give some examples?

Just to preface. Covid is the new Nazis, all arguments end up devolving into its discussion. Im tired of talking about covid but it's hard to get past how our country handled it, both the people and the government. To answer your question: https://www.politifact.com/article/2024/jun/06/did-fauci-say... >He said the 6-foot guideline “sort of just appeared” and wasn’t based on any data, and that such a study would be d…

Excellent example!

First the strong rebuttal: "Verifiably false information at time of sharing" in this case would mean you have evidence that Fauci knew distance played no role in infection rates, or that a distance other than 6 feet was better, and put out information suggesting 6 feet was correct anyway. You have no evidence of this, of course, because this is not what happened.

The more general rebuttal is that you are revealing exactly the type of "can't be trusted with details" that kneecapped public health communications throughout COVID.

The question is why Fauci selected 6 feet instead of 4, 5, 7, 8 or even 6.1, 6.148, or even 6.489598365983 feet.

The reality is that there's no real reason to select any of these over any other. There's a continuous curve of difficulty of adherence and a continuous curve of transmission reduction.

Any specific number would have been "arbitrary", but very obviously a clear guideline is better than a completely non-actionable "stay as far away as you reasonably can."

This is like hauling out the guy who set interstate speed limits at 60mph and not 59 or 59.5 or 59.84846898 and then blasting him for selecting the "arbitrary" 60 miles per hour.

Does that make sense to you?

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#52

Post by Bnichs »

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #51
Bnichs wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to preface. Covid is the new Nazis, all arguments end up devolving into its discussion. Im tired of talking about covid but it's hard to get past how our country handled it, both the people and the government. To answer your question: https://www.politifact.com/article/2024/jun/06/did-fauci-say... >He said the 6-foot guideline “sort of just appeared” and wasn’t based on any data, and that such a study would be d…

Excellent example! First the strong rebuttal: "Verifiably false information at time of sharing" in this case would mean you have evidence that Fauci knew distance played no role in infection rates, or that a distance other than 6 feet was better, and put out information suggesting 6 feet was correct anyway. You have no evidence of this, of course, because this is not what happened. The more general rebuttal is that y…

The number isn't the point, the messaging of "this number is science" is. If it were delivered clearly as "we done have all the information, but our best judgement based on a, b, c says the number is X" that would be far better and most of all honest than "it is 6ft and that's the science, follow the rules or don't enter public spaces"

Does that make sense to you?

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#53

Post by sorcerer-mar »

Bnichs wrote: post #52
sorcerer-mar wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent example! First the strong rebuttal: "Verifiably false information at time of sharing" in this case would mean you have evidence that Fauci knew distance played no role in infection rates, or that a distance other than 6 feet was better, and put out information suggesting 6 feet was correct anyway. You have no evidence of this, of course, because this is not what happened. The more general rebuttal is that y…

The number isn't the point, the messaging of "this number is science" is. If it were delivered clearly as "we done have all the information, but our best judgement based on a, b, c says the number is X" that would be far better and most of all honest than "it is 6ft and that's the science, follow the rules or don't enter public spaces" Does that make sense to you?

What?

There's not "a lack of information." The information is there's a continuous curve of transmission. You could have complete information and you would still need to pick an "arbitrary" point.

> it is 6ft and that's the science, follow the rules or don't enter public spaces

Link to which guidance you feel most closely stated this. I have never seen any guidance from CDC, NIH, FDA, or anywhere else that resembles this.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#54

Post by Bnichs »

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #53
Bnichs wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number isn't the point, the messaging of "this number is science" is. If it were delivered clearly as "we done have all the information, but our best judgement based on a, b, c says the number is X" that would be far better and most of all honest than "it is 6ft and that's the science, follow the rules or don't enter public spaces" Does that make sense to you?

What? There's not "a lack of information." The information is there's a continuous curve of transmission. You could have complete information and you would still need to pick an "arbitrary" point. > it is 6ft and that's the science, follow the rules or don't enter public spaces Link to which guidance you feel most closely stated this. I have never seen any guidance from CDC, NIH, FDA, or anywhere else that resembles…

Again, I do not care about covid and have no interest in arguing with you about covid. This is a discussion about eroded trust in institutions. And denying that the government's handling of covid had a causal relationship with the current distrust of institutions is as insane as denying covid itself. If you think that during that time the government exemplified honesty which would build trust, I do not have any argument that will convince you beside saying to increase your media literacy. Good luck.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#55

Post by sorcerer-mar »

Bnichs wrote: post #54
sorcerer-mar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? There's not "a lack of information." The information is there's a continuous curve of transmission. You could have complete information and you would still need to pick an "arbitrary" point. > it is 6ft and that's the science, follow the rules or don't enter public spaces Link to which guidance you feel most closely stated this. I have never seen any guidance from CDC, NIH, FDA, or anywhere else that resembles…

Again, I do not care about covid and have no interest in arguing with you about covid. This is a discussion about eroded trust in institutions. And denying that the government's handling of covid had a causal relationship with the current distrust of institutions is as insane as denying covid itself. If you think that during that time the government exemplified honesty which would build trust, I do not have any argum…

As is typical: "The government did x y z things to destroy trust!"

"Can you show me where?"

"No, but there's less trust now, ergo the government did it!"

Another hypothesis for you: You were peppered with bullshit from non-government sources so thoroughly and so frequently that you abdicated your responsibility to understand what's true and what's not.

This is, of course, the goal of such information campaigns.

In theory, I buy the argument that the government should be able to successfully overcome the 24/7 bullshit machine that you plugged yourself into, but I personally struggle to imagine a good/safe/non-authoritarian way for it to achieve that.

So I'm left with the conclusion that we each bear some amount of responsibility to try to counteract the game of telephone when it comes to understanding matters of personal or national importance, and you (like many other perfectly fine/smart/honorable people) failed to meet that obligation. Not really a personal critique given you didn't know the game you were playing and how proactive you needed to be in it, but here we are, and I'd recommend a high-agency look at how you chose to find and interpret information. The institutions were not the problem here.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#57

Post by mythrwy »

arethuza wrote: post #34
reylas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A climate scientist knows best", lets talk about this one as it is a perfect example of lost trust. It is not corruption that destroys the message, but constantly being incorrect. Just a warning, I may agree with them overall, but they are constantly getting the numbers wrong. We have been 3 years away from the point of no return for the last 20 years. I am old enough to remember the "ice age" that we were going to…

"I am old enough to remember the "ice age" that we were going to enter." I'm nearly 60 and I don't ever remember anyone talking about an imminent ice age - given my fondness for skiing when I was younger I'm sure I would have noticed.

Surprising. I'm 54 and the coming ice age was pretty widely published in my childhood. Lenard Nimoy had a movie about it, it was in Newsweek etc (and before you laugh, Newsweek was "real news" back in those days and my parents had a mail subscription).

I remember being extremely worried about it as a child and thinking "I am the last generation to know civilization as it has been before the world freezes over!"

It probably goes without saying but I haven't been especially concerned about global warming this go around.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#58

Post by Bnichs »

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #55
Bnichs wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I do not care about covid and have no interest in arguing with you about covid. This is a discussion about eroded trust in institutions. And denying that the government's handling of covid had a causal relationship with the current distrust of institutions is as insane as denying covid itself. If you think that during that time the government exemplified honesty which would build trust, I do not have any argum…

As is typical: "The government did x y z things to destroy trust!" "Can you show me where?" "No, but there's less trust now, ergo the government did it!" Another hypothesis for you: You were peppered with bullshit from non-government sources so thoroughly and so frequently that you abdicated your responsibility to understand what's true and what's not. This is, of course, the goal of such information campaigns. In th…

You just echo the institutions you defend so fervently by being sanctimonious. I hope you're a politician or healthcare exec, someone who at least has an interest in defending this mess. Otherwise it's just sad. Again, good luck.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#59

Post by reylas »

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #48
reylas wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't duped then, not duped now. All I am saying is that I heard people talk about it. You even agree, right? or you would not have said that there was not consensus. That means you at least heard it. Lots of people did and now they trust less because of it. No where in my statement did I say that I agreed with anything, just that constant "false predictions" causes people to quit listening. But as you have proved,…

> I am old enough to remember the "ice age" that we were going to enter. You are remembering a fringe theory amigo. If that's what you expected to happen, it's because you were listening to fringe scientists. You are continuing to listen to fringe scientists. Science happens in public, so you will hear all sorts of different theories thrown out. If you are latching onto these and then perceiving divergence from them…

Dude, I agree! You are missing the point. I know it was a fringe theory. But that is my point. We are talking about losing faith in experts here. Not my beliefs. "Experts" and I use that term loosely, predicted a global cooling. It was not all of them, but when a few cry wolf and the press run with it, then people start dis-trusting "experts" even those that could be correct.

You keep harping on my beliefs, but I have not stated them. I did not believe in an ice age, and I have already stated that I believe in climate change. Why do you keep trying to talk about what I personally believe when you dont even know what they are?

When have I hurt you in the past? Go back to the article on what it is about. I am only trying to add to the discussion on what could be a cause.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#60

Post by sorcerer-mar »

Bnichs wrote: post #58
sorcerer-mar wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is typical: "The government did x y z things to destroy trust!" "Can you show me where?" "No, but there's less trust now, ergo the government did it!" Another hypothesis for you: You were peppered with bullshit from non-government sources so thoroughly and so frequently that you abdicated your responsibility to understand what's true and what's not. This is, of course, the goal of such information campaigns. In th…

You just echo the institutions you defend so fervently by being sanctimonious. I hope you're a politician or healthcare exec, someone who at least has an interest in defending this mess. Otherwise it's just sad. Again, good luck.

Ah yes, you're right, it's the CDC's job to prevent you from seeing and believing whatever you read on x.com

Can't see how this goes wrong!

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