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Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

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Re: Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

#51

Post by tptacek »

tialaramex wrote: post #50
tptacek wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have not had augmented PAKEs that were widely trusted by the cryptographic engineering community for decades. OPAQUE was 2018. The adoption you're looking for hasn't happened for a bunch of reasons, including: * The industry's (reasonable) emphasis on moving people away from passwords altogether, and towards phishing-proof authentication. * The fact that we'd have to do new underlying protocol work to meaningfully…

My Google account is indeed protected with Yubikeys and so on. Years after I bought my first Security Key, I can name all the places I use it, whereas if I type 'pass' the list goes on for several screens. But while it's true that OPAQUE is what you might choose today, SRP is much older. We didn't have AES in 1995, we certainly didn't have a workable AEAD but instead of waiting for 21st century technology Netscape sh…

Right. I like SRP. I've implemented it many times. It's also a personal favorite because it coughs up amazingly good vulnerabilities (it's not often a dumb crypto implementation bug gets you a full auth bypass).

But cryptographers did not generally like SRP. Lots of cryptographers had misgivings about it. It is not surprising to me that SRP didn't get usefully baked into the web.

This "HTTP is designed with an authentication layer" stuff is a very old argument on HN. There are two sides to it. The other side is: baking stuff directly into the protocol makes us path-dependent on what we decide to add (see: every protocol ever designed), and if we were path dependent on 2002-era cryptography, that would be a very bad thing. Authentication is a complicated problem and people's needs differ.

I respect the take, the same way I enjoy reading Gutmann even though I agree with only like 50% of what he says.

Re: Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

#52

Post by pan69 »

pvg wrote: post #45
Larrikin wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no world where AP is dubious and Forbes deserves the click

AP is reporting what others are reporting. What's dubious is the original reporting.

Pretty much sums up the misinformation machine world we live in today.

Re: Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

#53

Post by stavros »

cyberax wrote: post #41
throwaway09387 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up passkey provider attestation. Services can't block your password manager, but they can block your passkey manager. It was used to threaten the KeePassXC devs into removing cleartext passkey exports.

That's incorrect. There is nothing in a passkey that identifies it as a "key from KeePassXC", so it can't be blocked. BitWarden exports passkeys just fine as cleartext, or to be precise as a file encrypted by the user-specified passphrase. So you can then decrypt it at your leisure.

While I don't agree with the grandparent's fears, you're only half correct: The server can mandate that you use an authenticator from X company, so some sites might block KeepassXC, even if they don't block a specific key.

Re: Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

#54

Post by msgodel »

krupan wrote: post #29

Can we be done with passwords yet? I see far too many sites offering a passkey option

Sure, here's my public ssh key: public.swiley.net/id_rsa.pub I've been using this with everything important and was just waiting for everyone else to realize it was better.

Oh no wait, you wanted some retarded Windows/Apple thing that needs biometrics, locks everything to your pay for service/hardware, and has a worse security model.

Nevermind just use a password.

Re: Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

#55

Post by cyberax »

stavros wrote: post #53
cyberax wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's incorrect. There is nothing in a passkey that identifies it as a "key from KeePassXC", so it can't be blocked. BitWarden exports passkeys just fine as cleartext, or to be precise as a file encrypted by the user-specified passphrase. So you can then decrypt it at your leisure.

While I don't agree with the grandparent's fears, you're only half correct: The server can mandate that you use an authenticator from X company, so some sites might block KeepassXC, even if they don't block a specific key.

There is no specific attribution in Passkeys, there's AAGUID but it's allowed to be all-zero. So they actually can't block passkeys _from_ KeypassXC.

They can instead block all the passkeys, to be exact: WebAuthn credentials that are not rooted in hardware and don't have attestation.

Re: Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

#56

Post by krupan »

msgodel wrote: post #54
krupan wrote: post #29

Can we be done with passwords yet? I see far too many sites offering a passkey option

Sure, here's my public ssh key: public.swiley.net/id_rsa.pub I've been using this with everything important and was just waiting for everyone else to realize it was better. Oh no wait, you wanted some retarded Windows/Apple thing that needs biometrics, locks everything to your pay for service/hardware, and has a worse security model. Nevermind just use a password.

I agree that passkeys are overly complicated, but they are in no way a worse security model than passwords. That is ludicrous. The password security model is an incredibly low bar to clear if you want better security.

Also, passkeys work fine on systems other than Windows/Apple

Re: Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

#57

Post by tialaramex »

tptacek wrote: post #51
tialaramex wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Google account is indeed protected with Yubikeys and so on. Years after I bought my first Security Key, I can name all the places I use it, whereas if I type 'pass' the list goes on for several screens. But while it's true that OPAQUE is what you might choose today, SRP is much older. We didn't have AES in 1995, we certainly didn't have a workable AEAD but instead of waiting for 21st century technology Netscape sh…

Right. I like SRP. I've implemented it many times. It's also a personal favorite because it coughs up amazingly good vulnerabilities (it's not often a dumb crypto implementation bug gets you a full auth bypass). But cryptographers did not generally like SRP. Lots of cryptographers had misgivings about it. It is not surprising to me that SRP didn't get usefully baked into the web. This "HTTP is designed with an authen…

Again I'm not here to praise SRP, though I will mention that when I think of you and and dumb crypto for a full bypass I always think of your surprise that Microsoft shipped a broken ECC implementation in Windows some years back. It's hard to dig a pit of success deep enough that everybody falls in, and that's why I like systems where we don't tell people things they don't need in the first place.

We didn't end up path dependant on RC4 for example, even though it's in SSLv2. RC4 is similar to SRP in some ways because nobody was ever comfortable with it but people kept trying to patch the known issues until eventually we gave up on it entirely.

Re: Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

#58

Post by amy214 »

airstrike wrote: post #15

> According to a report published this week, Cybernews researchers have recently discovered 30 exposed datasets that each contain a vast amount of login information — amounting to a total of 16 billion compromised credentials. That includes user passwords for a range of popular platforms including Google, Facebook and Apple. Can someone more knowledgeable than me explain how my passwords could have been leaked from G…

>Can someone more knowledgeable than me explain how my passwords could have been leaked from Google or Apple? Or is this just bad reporting?

A lot of this data, probably 95% + is from mass leaks from hacked sites. Hacked some non-google non-apple site, maybe 3 years ago, maybe 10.

Your login to that site is your email (@gmail.com) so there you go. your email may be in there several times with different passwords, corresponding to several hacked sites. if on whatever site, dropbox (which had been hacked this way), your dropbox login is same as google login.. there you go, that's how they did it.

some hacked sites have your password in plaintext, some with a weak hash algorithm which easily got reversed, either way, outcome is your password is known

rest of the passwords are from something now becoming more popular which are "stealer logs" - basically malware that's taking screenshots, scanning for bitcoin wallets, keylogging credentials, steam info etc, and logging it all. the stealer type systems have caught me eye in the past few years, the 2020s, but I'm sure that community existed prior, and certainly this type of software goes at least as far back as the '90s.

Re: Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

#59

Post by tptacek »

tialaramex wrote: post #57
tptacek wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. I like SRP. I've implemented it many times. It's also a personal favorite because it coughs up amazingly good vulnerabilities (it's not often a dumb crypto implementation bug gets you a full auth bypass). But cryptographers did not generally like SRP. Lots of cryptographers had misgivings about it. It is not surprising to me that SRP didn't get usefully baked into the web. This "HTTP is designed with an authen…

Again I'm not here to praise SRP, though I will mention that when I think of you and and dumb crypto for a full bypass I always think of your surprise that Microsoft shipped a broken ECC implementation in Windows some years back. It's hard to dig a pit of success deep enough that everybody falls in, and that's why I like systems where we don't tell people things they don't need in the first place. We didn't end up pa…

Yes, we did! RC4 is a great example of what I'm talking about. It's a cipher nobody had any business ever using, and we were using it well into the 2010s, despite the fact that the (comically simple) underlying vulnerabilities in it were known in the 1990s.

Re: Billions of login credentials have been leaked online

#60

Post by tialaramex »

tptacek wrote: post #59
tialaramex wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again I'm not here to praise SRP, though I will mention that when I think of you and and dumb crypto for a full bypass I always think of your surprise that Microsoft shipped a broken ECC implementation in Windows some years back. It's hard to dig a pit of success deep enough that everybody falls in, and that's why I like systems where we don't tell people things they don't need in the first place. We didn't end up pa…

Yes, we did! RC4 is a great example of what I'm talking about. It's a cipher nobody had any business ever using, and we were using it well into the 2010s, despite the fact that the (comically simple) underlying vulnerabilities in it were known in the 1990s.

How is RC4 a great example? Obviously with hindsight you'd choose something different, but in the mid-1990s there wasn't a lot of good options - in your alternate history do we just hope DES (which we know has a NOBUS for the US government) is OK forever? Do we go without SSL altogether ? What's the plan ?
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