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I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

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Re: I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

#51
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, improvement means no hallucination, but that only seems to have gotten worse and I'm interested to find out whether it's actually solvable at all.

All the benchmarks would disagree with you

The benchmarks also claim random 32B parameter models beat Claude 4 at coding, so we know just how much they matter.

It should be obvious to anyone who with a cursory interest in model training, you can't trust benchmarks unless they're fully private black-boxes.

If you can get even a hint of the shape of the questions on a benchmark, it's trivial to synthesize massive amounts of data that help you beat the benchmark. And given the nature of funding right now, you're almost silly not to do it: it's not cheating, it's "demonstrably improving your performance at the downstream task"

Re: I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

#52

I asked this in the other thread (no response, but I was a bit late) How does anyone using AI like this have confidence that they aren't unintentionally plagiarizing code and violating the terms of whatever license it was released under? For random personal projects I don't see it mattering that much. But if a large corp is releasing code like this, one would hope they've done some due diligence that they have to jus…

The consensus for right or wrong, is that LLM produced code (unless repeated verbatim) is equivalent to you or I legitimately stating our novel understanding of mixed sources some of which may be copyrighted.

Re: I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

#53

These posts are funny to me because prompt engineers point at them as evidence of the fast-approaching software engineer obsolescence but the years of experience in software engineering necessary to even guide an AI in this way is very high. The reason he keeps adjusting the prompts is because he knows how to program. He knows what it should look like. It just blurs the line between engineer and tool.

The argument is that this stuff will so radically improve senior engineer productivity that the demand for junior engineers will crater. And without a pipeline of junior engineers, the junior-to-senior trajectory will radically atrophy

Essentially, the field will get frozen where existing senior engineers will be able to utilize AI to outship traditional senior-junior teams, even as junior engineers fail to secure employment

I don’t think anything in this article counters this argument

Re: I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

#54

These posts are funny to me because prompt engineers point at them as evidence of the fast-approaching software engineer obsolescence but the years of experience in software engineering necessary to even guide an AI in this way is very high. The reason he keeps adjusting the prompts is because he knows how to program. He knows what it should look like. It just blurs the line between engineer and tool.

The argument is that this stuff will so radically improve senior engineer productivity that the demand for junior engineers will crater. And without a pipeline of junior engineers, the junior-to-senior trajectory will radically atrophy Essentially, the field will get frozen where existing senior engineers will be able to utilize AI to outship traditional senior-junior teams, even as junior engineers fail to secure em…

I don't know why people don't give more credence to the argument that the exact opposite thing will happen.

Re: I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

#55
post #8

It's an interesting review but I really dislike this type of techno-utopian determinism: "When models inevitably improve..." Says who? How is it inevitable? What if they've actually reached their limits by now?

Models have improved significantly over the last 3 months. Yet people have been saying 'What if they've actually reached their limits by now?' for pushing 3 years.

This is just people talking past each other.

If you want a model that's getting better at helping you as a tool (which for the record, I do), then you'd say in the last 3 months things got better between Gemini's long context performance, the return of Claude Opus, etc.

But if your goal post is replacing SWEs entirely... then it's not hard to argue we definitely didn't overcome any new foundational issues in the last 3 months, and not too many were solved in the last 3 years even.

In the last year the only real foundational breakthrough would be RL-based reasoning w/ test time compute delivering real results, but what that does to hallucinations + even Deepseek catching up with just a few months of post-training shows in its current form, the technique doesn't completely blow up any barriers that were standing the way people were originally touting it.

Overall models are getting better at things we can trivially post-train and synthesize examples for, but it doesn't feel like we're breaking unsolved problems at a substantially accelerated rate (yet.)

Re: I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

#56
> Imagine version control systems where you commit the prompts used to generate features rather than the resulting implementation.

So every single run will result in different non-reproducible implementation with unique bugs requiring manual expert interventions. How is this better?

Re: I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

#57
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, improvement means no hallucination, but that only seems to have gotten worse and I'm interested to find out whether it's actually solvable at all.

Why do you care about hallucination for coding problems? You're in an agent loop; the compiler is ground truth. If the LLM hallucinates, the agent just iterates. You don't even see it unless you make the mistake of looking closely.

What on earth are you talking about??

If the LLM hallucinates, then the code it produces is wrong. That wrong code isn't obviously or programmatically determinable as wrong, the agent has no way to figure out that it's wrong, it's not as if the LLM produces at the same time tests that identify that hallucinated code as being wrong. The only way that this wrong code can be identified as wrong is by the human user "looking closely" and figuring out that it is wrong.

You seem to have this fundamental belief that the code that's produced by your LLM is valid and doesn't need to be evaluated, line-by-line, by a human, before it can be committed?? I have no idea how you came to this belief but it certainly doesn't match my experience.

Re: I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

#58
post #57
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you care about hallucination for coding problems? You're in an agent loop; the compiler is ground truth. If the LLM hallucinates, the agent just iterates. You don't even see it unless you make the mistake of looking closely.

What on earth are you talking about?? If the LLM hallucinates, then the code it produces is wrong. That wrong code isn't obviously or programmatically determinable as wrong, the agent has no way to figure out that it's wrong, it's not as if the LLM produces at the same time tests that identify that hallucinated code as being wrong. The only way that this wrong code can be identified as wrong is by the human user "loo…

No, what's happening here is we're talking past each other.

An agent lints and compiles code. The LLM is stochastic and unreliable. The agent is ~200 lines of Python code that checks the exit code of the compiler and relays it back to the LLM. You can easily fool an LLM. You can't fool the compiler.

I didn't say anything about whether code needs to be reviewed line-by-line by humans. I review LLM code line-by-line. Lots of code that compiles clean is nonetheless horrible. But none of it includes hallucinated API calls.

Also, from where did this "you seem to have a fundamental belief" stuff come from? You had like 35 words to go on.

Re: I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

#59

> Reading through these commits sparked an idea: what if we treated prompts as the actual source code? Imagine version control systems where you commit the prompts used to generate features rather than the resulting implementation. Please god, no, never do this. For one thing, why would you not commit the generated source code when storage is essentially free? That seems insane for multiple reasons. > When models ine…

My work has involved a project that is almost entirely generated code for over a decade. Not AI generated, the actual work of the project is in creating the code generator.

One of the things we learned very quickly was that having generated source code in the same repository as actual source code was not sustainable. The nature of reviewing changes is just too different between them.

Another thing we learned very quickly was that attempting to generate code, then modify the result is not sustainable; nor is aiming for a 100% generated code base. The end result of that was that we had to significantly rearchitect the project for us to essentially inject manually crafted code into arbitrary places in the generated code.

Another thing we learned is that any change in the code generator needs to have a feature flag, because someone was relying on the old behavior.

Re: I read all of Cloudflare's Claude-generated commits

#60
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that this stuff will so radically improve senior engineer productivity that the demand for junior engineers will crater. And without a pipeline of junior engineers, the junior-to-senior trajectory will radically atrophy Essentially, the field will get frozen where existing senior engineers will be able to utilize AI to outship traditional senior-junior teams, even as junior engineers fail to secure em…

I don't know why people don't give more credence to the argument that the exact opposite thing will happen.

Right. I don’t understand why everyone thinks this will make it impossible for junior devs to learn. The people I had around to answer my questions when I was learning knew a whole lot less than Claude and also had full time jobs doing something other than answering my questions.
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