Live data from Hacker News

Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

bbc.co.uk

51–60 of 120 posts

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#51
A lot of the questions and opinions about Assange came up when Ecuador granted him asylum (eg [1]) as I'm sure they come up every time Wikileaks or Assange makes the news.

I just can't escape the opinion that something about Assange is just off. Don't get me wrong: something is very strange about the way Swedish prosecutors are acting. But think about this: if these charges were exactly what they appeared to be and there was no US involvement, claiming a US conspiracy sure could be an effective defence in the court of public opinion.

Some commenters point out that there's no evidence the US government put the two women up to this so there's no US involvement. This is a false dichotomy.

Personally I believe that the initial interview and prosecutorial involvement was innocent enough but probably what happened is that the US got wind of it and saw it as a way to get Assange to Sweden. I expect the reports are true that the US has a sealed indictment against Assange. I also find the idea that you can prosecute someone with espionage (most likely) for what is essentially journalism very disturbing.

The question of why not extradite from the UK is also unresolved. It's clear that it is easier to extradite from the Sweden (ie "temporary surrender"). Perhaps the US doesn't want to give the UK the political headache of having to deal with this and having it drag out in the courts.

It also seems like the Swedish government does't have the legal authority to guarantee non-extradition to the US.

Overall it's very strange and very disturbing.

EDIT: another possibility: the Swedish police and duty prosecutor misinterpreted and/or overreacteed, a more senior prosecutor acted more rationally but then it went further up and may not been at the behest of the US at all but simply could've been the government or even some lackey just being eager to please.

If nothing else, Sweden really should have to come clean on who made the decisions regarding Assange's arrest warrant (after giving him clearance to leave) and the Interpol "Red Notice".

[1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4390885

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#52
post #48
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people have pointed out in HN that the sex was consensual according to the 2 women, but the issue is about protected or unprotected sex. Rape has a different definition in the Swedish legal code than everywhere else in the world. Lots of people are trying to point out that Assange isn't being accused of rape, but some sort of "not-using-a-condom" silly rape law that is only the law is whacky Sweden, herp de derp…

>he had to be accused of a crime that would have been illegal in the UK. The extradition to the US of the guy who ran a site with links to pirated content comes to mind as a counter-example e: his name was richard o'dwyer. The only related UK law is copyright infringement, links do not constitute that. He appears only as guilty under UK law (and perhaps even US law) as google, and less than Youtube. He complied with…

Counter-example of what? I'm sure profiting from copyright infringment is illegal in the UK aswell.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#53
I'm surprised no-one's pointed out the irony of a man locked up in a building in order to stop him from being locked up in a building.

Seriously though, lets try to look at this objectively.

We have a man who is wanted for questioning relating to sexual offences and is actively trying to escape the charges. In any normal situation, we would all say that he should go and face the courts and if guilty do the time. Pro-Assange people claim that he should not face the courts on the grounds that this will be used to extradite him to the US. These same people are saying that someone who may be guilty of a crime in Sweden are saying that the law shouldn't apply to him.

Additionally, this same man has done an awful lot of work to expose corruption and wrongdoing at a high level. In the process of this however and through an exchange with a journalist, the raw cable information, all unredacted has been compromised, in the process potentially jeopardizing the lives of many people named in the unredacted cables. The US is understandably livid and take the disclosure of classified material seriously. Again, pro-Assange people claim that the law should not apply to him, that he was doing a good thing by exposing the redacted information, but are strangely silent on the fact that he posted the whole thing online and put these lives in potential danger.

Additionally we have the unprecedented act of the British government threatening the integrity of the Ecuadorian embassy (thanks for pointing this out Daishiman). This is indeed strange and unique. It's worth bearing in mind that the threat was made against the advice of legal counsel. It may be possible that the person responsible didn't understand the Vienna convention. The UK now has a legal obligation to extradite Assange to Sweden, as per their treaty with Sweden.

I find it interesting that people can suspend their views of justice based on the allegations of political meddling. The fact is that he is wanted by the Swedish government, and he's admitted that he had sex with the two ladies in question, yet the arguments against him facing the Swedish judicial system fail to offer up any reasons why he should be exempt from the law beyond claims of a conspiracy (which may or may not be real, we don't know for sure and probably never will).

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#54
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the OP was being sarcastic.

OP is referring to very real, disturbing sentiment that tops many discussions of Julian Assange's charges. Hop over to reddit sometime for real fun. I did not think OP agreed with that sentiment. But he did brush right past it without addressing it.

Exactly, a lot of people are defending Assange by trying to portray this as some sort of extreme law that is "not like normal rape", "not a real crime". It's not just reddit, look at the comment I replied to ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4404277 )

• "the issue is about protected or unprotected sex" (er no, sex with someone asleep is one of the charges).

• "Rape has a different definition in the Swedish legal code than everywhere else in the world". laws are different yes, but the UK courts have looked at it, and decided that the charges would count as crimes if it was in UK. To re-iterate what the UK Judge said about UK law: *"in having sexual intercourse without a condom in circumstances where she had made clear she would only have sexual intercourse if he used a condom would therefore amount to an offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003" (§86 of http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/2849.html )

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#55
post #51

A lot of the questions and opinions about Assange came up when Ecuador granted him asylum (eg [1]) as I'm sure they come up every time Wikileaks or Assange makes the news. I just can't escape the opinion that something about Assange is just off . Don't get me wrong: something is very strange about the way Swedish prosecutors are acting. But think about this: if these charges were exactly what they appeared to be and…

The one reason you know that something is weird is because courts/police/governments usually don't try to prosecute rapists this way. Usually rape victims are ignored. Seems the only way to get the state and police to really care, is if your rapist is an enemy of the state.

Also the UK will not extradite murderous dictators if they don't want to. (e.g. Augusto Pinochet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment_and_arrest_of_August... ).

It's very fishy, but that doesn't mean Assange has immunity.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#56
post #53

I'm surprised no-one's pointed out the irony of a man locked up in a building in order to stop him from being locked up in a building. Seriously though, lets try to look at this objectively. We have a man who is wanted for questioning relating to sexual offences and is actively trying to escape the charges. In any normal situation, we would all say that he should go and face the courts and if guilty do the time. Pro-…

Two points:

Sweden has not charged Assange with anything. They want him for interrogation. There is nothing impeding the Swedish government from questioning Assange in the UK. The whole extradition is a farce as long as other alternatives remain, which do not affect the investigation in any way.

It should be noted that the flagrant threats the UK has made to Ecuador's diplomatic integrity is something basically unheard of. Throughout the entirety of the Cold War no government has made a similar case for people of both much higher profile and admittedly far more dangerous to the public.

Second, no one has proved or bothered to show to any degree that anyone has had their safety compromised.

Lots of talking about Assange from the embarrassed governments in question, very little action towards showing that he was any danger to anyone.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#57
post #53

I'm surprised no-one's pointed out the irony of a man locked up in a building in order to stop him from being locked up in a building. Seriously though, lets try to look at this objectively. We have a man who is wanted for questioning relating to sexual offences and is actively trying to escape the charges. In any normal situation, we would all say that he should go and face the courts and if guilty do the time. Pro-…

You say you want to look at it objectively and then right away you claim he is "actively trying to escape the charges." The Assange side has only ever claimed they were concerned with due process. I think most people would agree that without due process there is no proper justice.

Sweden won't guarantee that it will not extradite Assange to the U.S. If this is about justice for the rape charges, then why can't they make that guarantee?

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#58
post #53

I'm surprised no-one's pointed out the irony of a man locked up in a building in order to stop him from being locked up in a building. Seriously though, lets try to look at this objectively. We have a man who is wanted for questioning relating to sexual offences and is actively trying to escape the charges. In any normal situation, we would all say that he should go and face the courts and if guilty do the time. Pro-…

Two points: Sweden has not charged Assange with anything. They want him for interrogation. There is nothing impeding the Swedish government from questioning Assange in the UK. The whole extradition is a farce as long as other alternatives remain, which do not affect the investigation in any way. It should be noted that the flagrant threats the UK has made to Ecuador's diplomatic integrity is something basically unhea…

You're right about the charges, thanks for pointing that out. The Swedish judicial system is very different to that of the UK and charges are not brought until the court date is near.

You're also correct about the threat on the embassy front, I should've put that in. Thanks again.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#59
post #51

A lot of the questions and opinions about Assange came up when Ecuador granted him asylum (eg [1]) as I'm sure they come up every time Wikileaks or Assange makes the news. I just can't escape the opinion that something about Assange is just off . Don't get me wrong: something is very strange about the way Swedish prosecutors are acting. But think about this: if these charges were exactly what they appeared to be and…

> I also find the idea that you can prosecute someone with espionage (most likely) for what is essentially journalism very disturbing.

Is it journalism? I never saw a story when I read the leaks; it seems that their purpose has been to disclose private (stolen) conversations that are obviously state secrets.

Update: I'm backing away from this; my only intention was to ask whether it would make anybody a "journalist" to simply release the verbatim private conversations of others. I have no intention of debating the right or wrong of Wikileaks or what they've done.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#60
post #53

I'm surprised no-one's pointed out the irony of a man locked up in a building in order to stop him from being locked up in a building. Seriously though, lets try to look at this objectively. We have a man who is wanted for questioning relating to sexual offences and is actively trying to escape the charges. In any normal situation, we would all say that he should go and face the courts and if guilty do the time. Pro-…

We have a man who is wanted for questioning relating to sexual offences and is actively trying to escape the charges. In any normal situation, we would all say that he should go and face the courts and if guilty do the time. Pro-Assange people claim that he should not face the courts on the grounds that this will be used to extradite him to the US. These same people are saying that someone who may be guilty of a crime in Sweden are saying that the law shouldn't apply to him.

The law is not an end, it's a means to achieve Justice. If we fear that justice is more threatened by his extradition, it makes perfect sense to support the decision not to extradite him.

As John Adams wrote, "It is more important that innocence be protected than it is that guilt be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world that they cannot all be punished. But if innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, perhaps to die, then the citizen will say, "whether I do good or whether I do evil is immaterial, for innocence itself is no protection," and if such an idea as that were to take hold in the mind of the citizen that would be the end of security whatsoever."

* Again, pro-Assange people claim that the law should not apply to him, that he was doing a good thing by exposing the redacted information, but are strangely silent on the fact that he posted the whole thing online and put these lives in potential danger.*

Assange is not an US citizen nor was he in the US. Exactly what law prohibited him from publishing that information?

I find it interesting that people can suspend their views of justice based on the allegations of political meddling.

Or maybe they just disagree with you on what is actually justice, or how it can be better protected.

Post reply on HN