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Java at 30: Interview with James Gosling

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Re: Java at 30: Interview with James Gosling

#51

Post by invalidname »

_ea1k wrote: post #35
cogman10 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me extol the virtues of Java the language. You can take pretty much any code written for Java 1.0 and you can still build and run it on Java 24. There are exceptions (sun.misc.Unsafe usage, for example) but they are few and far between. Moreso than nearly any other language backwards compatibility has been key to java. Heck, there's a pretty good chance you can take a jar compiled for 1.0 and still use it to this…

Yeah, that and the portability are really incredible and underrated. It is funny, because I constantly hear things like "write once, debug everywhere", but I have yet to see an alternative that has a higher probability of working everywhere. Although Python is pretty close, if you exclude Windows (and don't we all want to do that?).

I just spent 30 minutes trying to get a python package running on my Mac... Not feeling that. Pythons version compatibility is just awful and the mix of native is deeply problematic. Don't get me started on tooling and observability.

Re: Java at 30: Interview with James Gosling

#52

Post by the_overseer »

toprerules wrote: post #36

I admire Java as a success story, but I still have a deeply ingrained aversion to it for many reasons. I will admit that many of the reasons are due to Java's legacy as the language of bloated corporations, and its creation of overly verbose, magic fueled frameworks and poorly written code. Java as a language goes hand in hand with the idea that code is coal to be shoveled into the furnace, and we should all throw ou…

IT factor! Am I on a fashion website now? What kind of argument is that? Also, why on earth would you use strace or gdb for Java? It has enormously performant debugging tools in the JDK. Also, IDE debugging integration is second to none.

Re: Java at 30: Interview with James Gosling

#53

Post by hackthemack »

fidotron wrote: post #23
hackthemack wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in IT from the 90s to today. My perspective is it grew and grew because Sun supported it, then IBM supported it, RedHat supported it. It had the glimmer that it was the "Enterprise Way" of doing "Real IT" programming for "Real Businesses". I am not saying any of that is the "Truth", just the perception that was held by the majority of people who could choose what to write enterprise code in.

What was the viable alternative? Microsoft had C#, at one point IBM pushed SmallTalk. C++ for these environments is doable but going to slow you down at development a lot, as well as being much harder to secure. At that time the dynamic alternative was Perl, and that remained true basically until Rails came along.

I am not sure. C# came long after Java already made inroads into the Enterprise space. It was a different time.

I would say that many things in IT are not chosen on technical merits alone. You have people that do not want to accrue any blame. Back then, by choosing what IBM endorses or what Microsoft endorses, you absolve yourself of fallout from if and when things go wrong.

Back in the 90s, it felt like IBM, Redhat, Sun kind of, sort of, got together and wanted to keep Microsoft from taking over the Enterprise space by offering Java solutions.

Re: Java at 30: Interview with James Gosling

#56

Post by lelanthran »

exabrial wrote: post #7

Java performance isn't the fastest, that's ok, a close 3rd place behind C/CPP ain't bad. And you're still ahead of Go, and 10x or more ahead of Python and Ruby. Java syntax isn't perfect, but it is consistent, and predictable. And hey, if you're using an Idea or Eclipse (and not notepad, atom, etc), it's just pressing control-space all day and you're fine. Java memory management seems weird from a Unix Philosophy POV…

> Java performance isn't the fastest, that's ok, a close 3rd place behind C/CPP ain't bad.

When Java got popular, around 1999-2001, it was not a close third behind C (or C++).

At that time, on those machines, the gap between programs written in C and programs written in Java was about the same as the gap right now between programs written in Java and programs written in pure Python.

Re: Java at 30: Interview with James Gosling

#57

Post by jonhohle »

bhaak wrote: post #45
_ea1k wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that and the portability are really incredible and underrated. It is funny, because I constantly hear things like "write once, debug everywhere", but I have yet to see an alternative that has a higher probability of working everywhere. Although Python is pretty close, if you exclude Windows (and don't we all want to do that?).

I often run into problems running Python code under Linux. I don’t know if it is a me problem or if I’m missing the right incantations to set up the environment or whatever. Never had that much problems with Java. But I’m a Java and Ruby person so it might really be missing knowledge.

For anything more than just a one off script, look into venv. I’ve not written any python until this past year and can’t imagine maintaining an ongoing project without it.

Prior to that I would frequently have issues (and still have issues with one-off random scripts that use system python).

Re: Java at 30: Interview with James Gosling

#58

Post by kaliszad »

The java.net.Inet4Address and Inet6Address could be more lightweight.

For a simple IPv4 address normally representable using 4 bytes/ 32 bits Java uses 56 bytes. The reason for it is Inet4Address object takes 24 B and the InetAddressHolder object takes another 32 B. The InetAddressHolder can contain not only the address but also the address family and original hostname that was possibly resolved to the address.

For an IPv6 address normally representable using 16 bytes/ 128 bits Java uses 120 bytes. An Inet6Address contains the InetAddressHolder inherited from InetAddress and adds an Inet6AddressHolder that has additional information such as the scope of the address and a byte array containing the actual address. This is an interesting approach especially when compared to the implementation of UUID, which uses two longs for storing the 128 bits of data.

Java's approach is causing 15x overhead for IPv4 and 7.5x overhead for IPv6 which seems excessive. What am I missing here? Can or should this be streamlined?

Re: Java at 30: Interview with James Gosling

#59

Post by jonhohle »

badc0ffee wrote: post #48
exabrial wrote: post #7

Java performance isn't the fastest, that's ok, a close 3rd place behind C/CPP ain't bad. And you're still ahead of Go, and 10x or more ahead of Python and Ruby. Java syntax isn't perfect, but it is consistent, and predictable. And hey, if you're using an Idea or Eclipse (and not notepad, atom, etc), it's just pressing control-space all day and you're fine. Java memory management seems weird from a Unix Philosophy POV…

> Java performance isn't the fastest, that's ok, a close 3rd place behind C/CPP ain't bad. And you're still ahead of Go, and 10x or more ahead of Python and Ruby. Fastest at what, exactly?

I’m slightly surprised there isn’t more KVM/Virtualized bare metal JVM environments. While I haven’t used it in a while, the decade+ I spent running Javan’s in production basically have the entire system over to the JVM (with some overhead for some small non-JVM background daemons). Most things were built not to use POSIX standards, but Java equivalents. Occasionally direct file system access for writes was necessary (logging being a big exception).

So giving the entire system to the JVM, performing some warmup prior to a service considering itself “healthy”, and the JVM was reasonably fast. It devoured memory and you couldn’t really do anything else with the host, but you got the Java ecosystem, for better or worse).

There was a lot of good tooling that is missing from other platforms, but also a ton of overhead that I am happy to not have to deal with at the moment.

Re: Java at 30: Interview with James Gosling

#60

Post by mark_l_watson »

exabrial wrote: post #16
dragandj wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throw in Clojure into the mix, and you get superpowers!

I'm still trying to mentally grok the Clojure model and syntax hah. On my todo list. Clojure users seem to love it though. Do you have a tutorial that could sell it to me?

My Clojure AI book won't teach you the language, but afterward you read through a tutorial my book contains interesting examples; read it online https://leanpub.com/clojureai/read
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