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Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

bbc.com

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Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#51

Post by orwin »

fmajid wrote: post #48
psunavy03 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Lai? Prosecuted. Abu Ghraib? Prosecuted and a one-star relieved. Eddie Gallagher? Prosecuted, at least until Trump got in the way. I'll buy that all of the above were disgraces to the US, and I'll buy that the IDF is a little too cavalier with the rules of engagement. But come on. It's easy to pontificate from an armchair about who's "whitewashing" things when it isn't your friends getting shot. In wars, these thi…

My Lai was only addressed after dogged investigators like Sy Hersh made it impossible to keep covering up. Compare this with the US during the Philippines War in the 19th century, an exceedingly dirty colonial conflict with no meaningful press involvement to blow the whistle, yet a major was court-martialled for waterboarding a prisoner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#During_the_Phili... Ultimately these…

Yes, and the main issue is that the men in the army who could have been properly taught how to handle violence are not, and when they're back the violence will infuse in the broader society.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#52

Post by psunavy03 »

orwin wrote: post #51
fmajid wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Lai was only addressed after dogged investigators like Sy Hersh made it impossible to keep covering up. Compare this with the US during the Philippines War in the 19th century, an exceedingly dirty colonial conflict with no meaningful press involvement to blow the whistle, yet a major was court-martialled for waterboarding a prisoner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#During_the_Phili... Ultimately these…

Yes, and the main issue is that the men in the army who could have been properly taught how to handle violence are not, and when they're back the violence will infuse in the broader society.

Apparently you missed the part in the article where SAS troopers testified against the accused.

So let's take that bigoted "veterans are broken people" narrative and stuff it where the sun don't shine alongside "women are hysterical" and so forth.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#53

Post by sandspar »

tartoran wrote: post #40
beloch wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soldiers are not trained to do police work, yet that's what many are asked to do. An informant provides a tip that someone is manufacturing IED's, so soldiers are sent to investigate. They're not trained for that. Worse yet, they're the targets of the crime they're investigating. Police are not typically asked to investigate an attempt on their own lives for good reason. Even with appropriate training and when invest…

I don't buy that, nobody with a shred of humanity shoots handcuffed kids in the back of their heads. Something is wrong with these people as well as with the ones who are protecting them.

Human beings have unfathomed depths. You don't know how you'd react under the same pressures. Like, unless you've been there, you simply don't know. Our behavior under extreme stress is unpredictable, even to ourselves. That's the hard part about prison or homelessness or war: it shows you parts of yourself that you wish didn't exist. You're writing this guy off as un-human. I think that's a mistake. If we accept the full complexity of normal human potential, including our own destructive capacity, then we can put systems in place to guard against it. That's why the original commenter said it's the command's fault. They should have constructed a system where something like this is impossible. Military systems must be built to absorb the reality that soldiers will act in contradiction to both their training and their self-concept. Only by accepting moral volatility as an expected input can a military system anticipate the full range of its own possible breakdowns.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#54

Post by WatchDog »

So Australian and now UK special forces have been implicated in similar war crimes.

How is it that US special forces haven’t been implicated in similar war crimes?

Does the US have a genuinely better culture, or are they just less accountable?

People like Chris Kyle are treated as heroes, but it seems unlikely that he got so many kills by following the rules of engagement properly.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#56

Post by wanderlust123 »

beloch wrote: post #33
huhkerrf wrote: post #21

When I read about terrible things done in a group like this, my first thought is: would I have done the right thing? I like to think I'm a good person, but these people probably do, too. It sounds like there's something rotten in the culture of the special forces that encouraged or at least overlooked these actions. What would I have done if I had been there? Would I have stood up against people I saw as my brothers…

Soldiers are not trained to do police work, yet that's what many are asked to do. An informant provides a tip that someone is manufacturing IED's, so soldiers are sent to investigate. They're not trained for that. Worse yet, they're the targets of the crime they're investigating. Police are not typically asked to investigate an attempt on their own lives for good reason. Even with appropriate training and when invest…

This has to be one of the worst mental gymnastics i have seen in a long time

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#57

Post by cafard »

WatchDog wrote: post #54

So Australian and now UK special forces have been implicated in similar war crimes. How is it that US special forces haven’t been implicated in similar war crimes? Does the US have a genuinely better culture, or are they just less accountable? People like Chris Kyle are treated as heroes, but it seems unlikely that he got so many kills by following the rules of engagement properly.

Haven't they?

Allegations from the Vietnam war affected Bob Kerrey's political ambitions many years later, as I recall. The US does bring people to trial, now and then, but may come away with misdemeanor convictions.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#58

Post by aatd86 »

nickff wrote: post #50
aatd86 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where am I making excuses? The point is you can't criticize others when you do the same exact thing you are criticizing. Beyond that it's also legitimate to doubt the info one gets from people who are obviously hypocritical. That's all.

You’re engaging in ‘whataboutism’; if you’d like to discuss the Wagner Group, you should post something about them instead.

Drawing a legitimate parallel and questioning the legitimacy of what we know and what we are being told is hardly 'whataboutism'. Especially when it might be geo-strategic. I find your accusation severe.

The news colported these past few years should already have opened some eyes normally. Alas...

Said otherwise, if you're a thief accusing someone else of stealing, I can legitimately wonder if you're making accusations in good faith... That simple.

Isn't there a saying for this even? The pot that calls the kettle black?

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#59

Post by WatchDog »

cafard wrote: post #57
WatchDog wrote: post #54

So Australian and now UK special forces have been implicated in similar war crimes. How is it that US special forces haven’t been implicated in similar war crimes? Does the US have a genuinely better culture, or are they just less accountable? People like Chris Kyle are treated as heroes, but it seems unlikely that he got so many kills by following the rules of engagement properly.

Haven't they? Allegations from the Vietnam war affected Bob Kerrey's political ambitions many years later, as I recall. The US does bring people to trial, now and then, but may come away with misdemeanor convictions.

I guess I'm thinking more about GWOT special forces specifically.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#60

Post by avidiax »

WatchDog wrote: post #54

So Australian and now UK special forces have been implicated in similar war crimes. How is it that US special forces haven’t been implicated in similar war crimes? Does the US have a genuinely better culture, or are they just less accountable? People like Chris Kyle are treated as heroes, but it seems unlikely that he got so many kills by following the rules of engagement properly.

> How is it that US special forces haven’t been implicated in similar war crimes?

They absolutely have been.

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/10/the-crimes-of-seal-team-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gallagher_(Navy_SEAL)

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