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Nevermind, an album on major chords

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Re: Nevermind, an album on major chords

#51

Post by jrowen »

globnomulous wrote: post #30
thisismytest wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to cultural significance and catchiness the fact that people have been doing it for a long time doesn’t matter. In fact, the ability to tap into mass media only makes the impact of a song greater. Access to electric instruments and effects only gave them more ability to create interesting music. I’m a fan of all kinds of music old and new. But anyone saying German leders or old timey civil war ditties a…

This comment is such a weird way to defend the patently absurd claim that he wrote some of the best songs in human history. Even the first sentence makes no cogent sense, especially when read alongside your original comment: > When it comes to cultural significance and catchiness the fact that people have been doing it for a long time doesn’t matter. You've apparently changed your argument. "Best in human history" do…

This whole subthread - arguing about "the best songs in human history" without even the slightest attempt to define one of the most subjective things ever - is patently absurd.

Re: Nevermind, an album on major chords

#52

Post by thisismytest »

globnomulous wrote: post #50
quesera wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You've apparently changed your argument. "Best in human history" does not mean "most culturally significant and catchiest." To be fair, "best" has no correct definition. What's yours?

> What's yours? Just not whatever that guy's is. Less cheekily, I agree with you that, in the case of something like music, the concept of "best" has no correct meaning. It's literal nonsense.

The point was that the guy was a genius.

Most definitions of genius are more liberal than a 1 and a million talent and he was at least that.

Actually try a definition and see what happens.

Rolling stone made a best list. SLTS was number 5.

He’s written some of the best songs ever by many definitions. That makes him a genius. Both terms are ambiguous, debating that is boring.

Re: Nevermind, an album on major chords

#53

Post by tptacek »

jamesblonde wrote: post #48
tptacek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that I think he was a genius? If I don't think Husker Du, the Pixies, and Sonic Youth were genius-led bands, I'm not sure how a band that basically synthesized those bands and then lensed them through Guns n Roses could be genius. Is David Bowie a genius? Maybe, if we're generous? When I hear people call Cobain a genius I feel the way I do when I'm hear someone say they've never seen The Wire. Listen to…

Loud-quiet-loud was the signature sounds of Nirvana - borrowed from Frank Black who pioneered it with the Pixies. Kurt was a way better singer and better looking than Frank Black. Along with good songs, that was a recipe for success. I am a big Nirvana fan. But a bigger Pixies fan. A chunk of Pixies sound/energy was inspired from the guitar middle/outro in B52's "Rock Lobster".

I like both of them, I don't think either is a genius, and I think both Frank Black and Cobain are on basically the same level. I really think it's underappreciated how much the early Seattle sound was just a fusion of 80s punk and hair metal. If you play Smells Like Teen Spirit and the Breeders "Hellbound" back to back, and you like Nirvana much more, what you really like is Guns n Roses.

There's no shame in that!

Re: Nevermind, an album on major chords

#54

Post by bryceneal »

munchler wrote: post #41
bryceneal wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going back all the way to the '60s, if you listen to interviews with Paul McCartney of The Beatles he states very plainly that he knows no music theory, and can't read music. I suspect this is true of many great songwriters, maybe even most of them. I would even argue that studying music theory may even make you a worse songwriter, because the most innovative songwriters don't seem to follow some clearly established…

Paul McCartney deliberately avoided learning how to read music, but he understands music theory just fine. They are two different skills. It's quite clear from The Beatles' music that they know about keys, chords, etc. For example, McCartney tells a fun story about The Beatles traveling across Liverpool to learn a single B7 chord in their early days: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_r5B1AhP1Fo

I hear your point. I wouldn't personally consider someone who knows what a key or a chord is to be well-studied in music theory. Surely even Kurt Cobain understood which power chords he was playing, for example.

I was referring more to being well read in music theory in the academic sense. I am doubtful McCartney ever picked up a book on the subject. Traveling to meet someone so they can show you how to position your fingers so you can play a B7 chord is a bit different than that in my opinion.

Re: Nevermind, an album on major chords

#55

Post by tptacek »

horns4lyfe wrote: post #45
tptacek wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like Nirvana as much as the next 90s kid but there is no way these are the best songs in human history, or even in rock history, or even in "modern rock" history.

I don’t know how you can say with a straight face that smells like teen spirit isn’t one of the greatest modern rock songs. That riff is etched in music history at this point

It's not even in my top 5 Nirvana songs. The riff you're talking about is Boston's "More Than A Feeling" --- so much so that they used to play a fake-out of "More Than A Feeeling" in concert. I like "Smells Like Teen Spirit" more than "More Than A Feeling", but not like, much more.

1. Where Did You Sleep Last Night Unplugged

2. Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle (or, interchangeably, "Rape Me", though the "blanket of ash" line gets me every time with Frances Farmer).

3. Lithium

4. Heart Shaped Box

5. Dumb (unplugged).

It's not fair to make the #1 song a cover, but that performance merits it.

Re: Nevermind, an album on major chords

#56

Post by onlypassingthru »

horns4lyfe wrote: post #45
tptacek wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like Nirvana as much as the next 90s kid but there is no way these are the best songs in human history, or even in rock history, or even in "modern rock" history.

I don’t know how you can say with a straight face that smells like teen spirit isn’t one of the greatest modern rock songs. That riff is etched in music history at this point

It's really twofold. You could also identify the song just from Dave's riffs.

Re: Nevermind, an album on major chords

#57

Post by tptacek »

quesera wrote: post #44
tptacek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that I think he was a genius? If I don't think Husker Du, the Pixies, and Sonic Youth were genius-led bands, I'm not sure how a band that basically synthesized those bands and then lensed them through Guns n Roses could be genius. Is David Bowie a genius? Maybe, if we're generous? When I hear people call Cobain a genius I feel the way I do when I'm hear someone say they've never seen The Wire. Listen to…

I mostly agree with you, but I suspect there's an element of just being the right age. I think of Kurt Cobain like an accidental Elvis Presley. Perfect for the moment, and (unlike Elvis) mostly organically grown, but with very clear antecedents. I cannot point to strong antecedents of Pixies, Sonic Youth, Throwing Muses, PJ Harvey, Cocteau Twins, Bauhaus, Einstürzende Neubauten, The Slits, Bongwater, Kate Bush, The C…

Pixies antecedents are Husker Du and Sonic Youth.

Sonic Youth was the Velvets and The Fall; I found a list of setlists from '70s CBGB and made a playlist, and you can hear Sonic Youth all over it.

Throwing Muses (a favorite of mine) a little harder to pinpoint, feels to me like the product of a scene more than a direct evolution of clear antecedents, rather than an act like Dinosaur Jr. was a perversion of Neil Young. A good contrast to Nirvana.

PJ Harvey is the Pixies antecedents plus Patti Smith. People say Beefheart; I don't know Beefheart well enough to say and have a deep suspicion of people who bring up Beefheart.

Kate Bush is prog rock.

Einsturzende is Can (or like a violent response to Can).

The Cure is radio-friendly post-punk; their early stuff, which is the only stuff that comes close to holding up, is basically Wire.

Re: Nevermind, an album on major chords

#58

Post by bigstrat2003 »

SwellJoe wrote: post #43

This is a remarkably ignorant take. Literally every detail is wrong. They aren't major chords, they're mostly power chords, which are neither major nor minor (no third and the third provides the major/minor tonality). They often function as minor chords because of the melody or other parts, or just because of how the progression fits together. They aren't unique or new with Cobain, he was part of a long history of pu…

> Cobain was a good songwriter in the rock and roll tradition.

He wasn't even that. He was a pretty bad songwriter. His music was by and large mopey, plodding monotonous work that is dreary to listen to. Apart from Smells Like Teen Spirit, I don't think he wrote a single song worth listening to.

Re: Nevermind, an album on major chords

#59

Post by wyclif »

mtalantikite wrote: post #42
wyclif wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the fans who like Cobain's songs overpraise him or praise him in the wrong terms: "OMG Kurt Cobain is a genius songwriter." I think, and as this post suggests, it's much more the case that "Kurt Cobain had very good instincts for someone completely untutored" which is a different thing altogether.

But I think most of us would take a musician with great instincts and not much theoretical understanding over one with extraordinary theory and poor instinct. How many thousands of boring jazz players have been pumped out by university programs over the past 50 years? Meanwhile John Lee Hooker could just vamp over a single chord and I could listen to it for hours. I'm remembering a scene in Hampton Hawes's autobiogra…

FWIW, I'm a huge fan of both John Lee Hooker and Jimmy Reed, who had similar vamp-based playing styles and were untutored, couldn't read music, &c. One of my guitar teachers knew Hooker and he even imparted "the secret of the guitar" to him, which he then passed down to me.

But yeah, feel, instinct, and having good ears can carry you a long way especially for solo artists. I'm still glad I can read music and wouldn't trade that for (almost) anything, though.

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