What's the closest thing to Rails in a language with a sound static type system?
spring boot
We fell out of love with Next.js and back in love with Ruby on Rails
51–60 of 533 posts
Re: We fell out of love with Next.js and back in love with Ruby on Rails
#52Just my opinion but, server‑side rendering never really went away, but the web is finally remembering why it was the default. First paint and SEO are still better when markup comes from the server, which is why frameworks as different as Rails + Turbo, HTMX, Phoenix LiveView, and React Server Components all make SSR the baseline. Those projects have shown that most dashboards and CRUD apps don’t need a client router,…
Having a server provide an island or rendering framework for your site can be more complex than an SPA with static assets and nginx. You still have to deal with all the tooling you are talking about, right? You’ve just moved the goalpost to the BE. And just like the specific use cases you mentioned for client routing I can also argue that many sites don’t care about SEO or first paint so those are non features. So ho…
I disagree, the problem with an SPA is that now you have two places where you manage state (the backend and the frontend). That gives you much more opportunity for the two places to disagree, and now you have bugs.
Re: We fell out of love with Next.js and back in love with Ruby on Rails
#53Just my opinion but, server‑side rendering never really went away, but the web is finally remembering why it was the default. First paint and SEO are still better when markup comes from the server, which is why frameworks as different as Rails + Turbo, HTMX, Phoenix LiveView, and React Server Components all make SSR the baseline. Those projects have shown that most dashboards and CRUD apps don’t need a client router,…
Having a server provide an island or rendering framework for your site can be more complex than an SPA with static assets and nginx. You still have to deal with all the tooling you are talking about, right? You’ve just moved the goalpost to the BE. And just like the specific use cases you mentioned for client routing I can also argue that many sites don’t care about SEO or first paint so those are non features. So ho…
I have repeated this elsewhere. APIs for UI tend to diverge from APIs in general in practice.
For applications that are not highly interactive, you don't quite need a lot of tooling on the BE, and since need to have a BE anyway, a lot of standard tooling is already in there.
React style SPAs are useful in some cases, but most apps can live with HTMX style "SPA"s
Re: We fell out of love with Next.js and back in love with Ruby on Rails
#54When I see articles and discussions about web + stack I can’t but ask “What problem are they actually solving” ? The answer is always: put text on screen . When your business goal is put text on screen the next logical step is to ask how much time and money does the tech stack really save? I have never found a developer that answer that question with a number. That’s a really big problem.
“Always” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. At my last few jobs the goals have involved interactive visualizations, 3D model viewers and peer-to-peer screen sharing. There is a huge diversity of business goals outside of things that can be reduced to “put text on screen”.
Re: We fell out of love with Next.js and back in love with Ruby on Rails
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
I completely agree with the sentiment that we don’t need SPAs and similar tech for news sites and dashboards and the myriad crud apps we use on a day to day basis but I think what you’re proposing is throwing the baby out with the bath water. How would a site like google maps, which I’m sure we can all agree is extremely useful, work in a Web 1.0 style world? It needs to dynamically load tiles and various other resou…
You misunderstand me, I’m not proposing we get rid of JavaScript. I am saying that allowing for JavaScript to be dynamically downloaded and executed after the page is ready was a mistake. You can build your Google docs, your maps, and figmas. You don’t need JS to be sent after the page is ready to do so.
How are you going to stop it, when you already are running JS? I can write a VM in JS that I can load, then I can load static assets after the page has loaded, and execute them in the VM. How would you block that?
Re: We fell out of love with Next.js and back in love with Ruby on Rails
#56When I see articles and discussions about web + stack I can’t but ask “What problem are they actually solving” ? The answer is always: put text on screen . When your business goal is put text on screen the next logical step is to ask how much time and money does the tech stack really save? I have never found a developer that answer that question with a number. That’s a really big problem.
> put text on screen
I get where you're coming from but that's actually quite a bit of an oversimplification even for many web apps outside of the 1% for which a lot of modern web development solutions and frameworks seem to have been created.
For one thing it doesn't take any account of input. When someone draws something with Figma or writes something in Google Docs or buys something from Amazon - or indeed any online shop at whatever scale - or gets a set of insurance quotes from a comparison site or amends something in an employee's HR record or whatever it may be the user's input is a crucial part of the system and its behaviour.
For another, we're not just putting text on the screen: we're putting data on the screen. And whilst data can always be rendered as text (even if not very readably or comprehensibly), depending on what it represents, it can often be more meaningfully rendered graphically.
And then there are integrations that trigger behaviour in other systems and services: GitHub, Slack, eBay, Teams, Flows, Workato, Salesforce, etc. Depending on what these integrations do, they can behave as inputs, outputs, or both.
And all of the above can result in real world activity: money is moved, orders are shipped from warehouses, flow rates are changed in pipelines, generators spool up or down, students are offered (or not offered) places at universities, etc.
Re: We fell out of love with Next.js and back in love with Ruby on Rails
#57Just my opinion but, server‑side rendering never really went away, but the web is finally remembering why it was the default. First paint and SEO are still better when markup comes from the server, which is why frameworks as different as Rails + Turbo, HTMX, Phoenix LiveView, and React Server Components all make SSR the baseline. Those projects have shown that most dashboards and CRUD apps don’t need a client router,…
I think the confession that "Figma‑ or Gmail‑class apps still benefit from heavy client logic" is a telling one, and the reason I politely disagree with your thinking is that it relies in the app staying small forever. But that's not what happens. Apps grow and grow and grow. I've heard people say they just want "Pure JS" with no frameworks at all because frameworks are too complex, for their [currently] small app. S…
The problem is that people are frequently using SPA JS frameworks for things that are clearly not gmail of figma -- i.e. news websites and other sites with minimal interactivity or dynamic behaviour. If you are genuinely building an 'app'-like thing, then of course you need some kind of JS SPA framework, but too often people are reaching for these tools for non-app use cases.
Re: We fell out of love with Next.js and back in love with Ruby on Rails
#58Rails is still wonderful. But someone should fork Rails so it ceases to be associated with DHH. CEOs who reveal who they really are become really toxic to the brand. We've seen that happen with Tesla.
What’s DHH done?
Beyond Rails and 37signals, I'm most familiar with him as a car racer, photography enthusiast, and his recent "buy once"/post-subscription software advocacy.
This is an interview with him last year on "one person" approaches to web app development that I liked a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rlATWBNvMw
Re: We fell out of love with Next.js and back in love with Ruby on Rails
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
I completely agree with the sentiment that we don’t need SPAs and similar tech for news sites and dashboards and the myriad crud apps we use on a day to day basis but I think what you’re proposing is throwing the baby out with the bath water. How would a site like google maps, which I’m sure we can all agree is extremely useful, work in a Web 1.0 style world? It needs to dynamically load tiles and various other resou…
You misunderstand me, I’m not proposing we get rid of JavaScript. I am saying that allowing for JavaScript to be dynamically downloaded and executed after the page is ready was a mistake. You can build your Google docs, your maps, and figmas. You don’t need JS to be sent after the page is ready to do so.
Wouldn't this make users pay for every possible feature they could ever use on a given site? For instance, in Google Maps I might use Street View 1% of the time, and the script for it is pretty bulky. In your ideal world, would I have to preload the Street View handling scripts whenever I loaded up Google Maps at all?
Re: We fell out of love with Next.js and back in love with Ruby on Rails
#60Just my opinion but, server‑side rendering never really went away, but the web is finally remembering why it was the default. First paint and SEO are still better when markup comes from the server, which is why frameworks as different as Rails + Turbo, HTMX, Phoenix LiveView, and React Server Components all make SSR the baseline. Those projects have shown that most dashboards and CRUD apps don’t need a client router,…
As somebody with an expert level knowledge with MVC frameworks like Ruby on Rails and Phoenix Framework, etc., and an experience building large-scale enterprise-grade apps using simpler technologies like jQuery, StimulusJS and plain old JavaScript on the front end with a little bit of React thrown in here and there, I found Development cycles to be much faster with these simpler stacks overall. The complexity of the code base never ended up turning to be a liability that it creates significant overhead and bottlenecks for new engineers joining the team to jump in and understand the end-to-end workflows of things.
Fast forward to what I am doing today in my new job. We have a pretty complex setup using Redwoodjs along with several layers of abstraction with Graphql (which I approve of) and a ton of packages and modules tied together on the front end with react, storybook, etc. and some things I am not even sure why they are there. I see new engineers joining our team and banging their heads to make even the smallest of changes and to implement new features and having to make code changes at multiple different places. I find myself doing similar things as well from time to time - and I always can't help but think about the complexity that I used to deal with when working with these MVC frameworks and how ridiculously easy it was to just throw logic in a controller and a service layer and and the view templates for the UI stuff. It all fit in so easily and shipping features was super simple and quick.
I wouldn't discount react as a framework but I am also starting to some cracks caused by using TypeScript on the backend. This entire Javascript world seems to be a mess you don't want to mess with. This is probably just me with an opinion, but but using Turbo, Stimulus and and sprinkles of LiveView got me really really far very quickly.