Given that AfD represents ~20.8% of the vote, 25% of the Bundestag and have upwards trending poll numbers; we can probably start talking about the collapse of democracy in Germany if they aren't allowed to engage politically as any other party. These numbers are too large to ignore. I wish the Germans the best of luck and reiterate that declaring war on their own energy supply was probably a mistake.
So, tell me again how you'll be preventing the "collapse of democracy" by not condemning the anti-democratic party?
AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
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Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
#52Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is the AfD acting extra-constitutionally? Or are they just proposing to do so? They aren't actually in power, are they? If not, how are they "acting" at all? (Not German, so I don't know. Honest questions from an incomplete understanding.)
It's the second option. Should a party that promises to act extra-legally once they get into power be allowed to campaign? I think not, but it is not an easy question to answer. Europeans have been reminded of the dangers of right-wing populism with what's currently happening in America.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - John F. Kennedy
And yet... in the US at least, we have an avenue for that. Change the laws. The Constitution forbids what you want to do? You can change that, too. That's the route that you're supposed to take.
If you won't, and you say so publicly, and the people are willing to vote for you anyway... then the powers that be are in a tough spot. They have (at least somewhat legitimate) grounds for excluding you. And yet, they risk your popular support deciding that the system will not accept them.
What they should be doing is figuring out the reason so many people support those who want to tear down the system, and find a way to give them most of what they want within the system, and campaign on that, to cut the ground out from the outside-the-system party. But that may require more competence and savvy than the powers that be have shown...
Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
#54I wish there was tighter rules around what stays on the front page of HN. I come here for tech news or interesting nerdy blog posts not this stuff.
Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some of their ex-members have been literal Nazis. Something that doesn't go over very well in Germany. The party banned these people but their standpoints are still very controversial, the main issue is that in some aspects they do no support the juridical system. So yeah, regular right wing compared to American standards but I think we can all agree that respecting the trias politica is a good thing in any country.
I’ll be honest, as an American looking in from the outside, this looks like the leftist parties in Germany trying to silence the opposition. If the party is expelling the true extremists like the Neo-Nazi former party members that you mentioned, I don’t see why they should be held responsible for them. This would be like declaring the entire American Republican Party extreme-far right because of a few whack jobs like…
Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
#56Given that AfD represents ~20.8% of the vote, 25% of the Bundestag and have upwards trending poll numbers; we can probably start talking about the collapse of democracy in Germany if they aren't allowed to engage politically as any other party. These numbers are too large to ignore. I wish the Germans the best of luck and reiterate that declaring war on their own energy supply was probably a mistake.
Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
So, tell me again how you'll be preventing the "collapse of democracy" by not condemning the anti-democratic party?
I'm not sure I follow the double negative there, but once intelligence agencies get involved condemnation doesn't mean much.
Now, if this should happen and all that, I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be a new thing in Germany (or in other countries like the US where the FBI classifies groups too). In any case and independently of my political views, I can see why a country with Germany's past flags anything that leaves the centre of the political spectrum. I also can see why they're paying attention to this party... their positions about Russia, funding, etc, should raise some red flags.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Office_for_the_Protect...
Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
#58I wish there was tighter rules around what stays on the front page of HN. I come here for tech news or interesting nerdy blog posts not this stuff.
Then again, I have the same complaint about reddit (which has flairs, but doesn't let you blacklist them because then you'd be able to filter out all the ragebait)
Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You can expect the same thing as with FN/RN in France before the developments within the last 2 years, i.e any right wing party not voting resolutions that are submitted by AfD even if they are 95% identical to what is in their own programme. But I think this contributes to the general distrust of the population towards incumbent politicians. I don't know about Germany, but in France the situation becomes ridiculou…
> If everyone's an extremist, that word soon loses its meaning. See: the boy who cried wolf. People are getting tired of this crap and can see trying to outlaw a growing party for "extremism" as a shameless political tactic. Which means actual extremists may go unnoticed. What makes you think that the AfD isn't a right-wing extremist party?
My point was rather to note that similar things happen in France, with incumbent politicians trying to convince voters that the French RN is the more extreme the more they gain traction. But pretty much everybody who says anything else than "we should abolish borders and allow any and all immigrants who wish to come" or even "maybe we should do something about crime" is labeled "fascist", "extreme right", etc.
This has been confirmed to me when a French party (LR) which is absolutely not "far right" or anything like that and is actually one of the old "governing" parties, was labeled as such by the left when one of their ministers tried to broach the subject of immigration.
So, I'm skeptical when I see some random mainstream politician, who's party is sinking, call this or that party "extreme right", "fascist", or other loaded terms.
To me this just looks like posturing and name-calling. Nobody tries to prove that this or that party's programme sucks big time on concrete metrics (and they'd actually have a point about the RN). They just appeal to voters' sentiment. Which, after a while, gets old.
Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
#60Guess this will be unpopular. >The AfD came second in federal elections in February, winning a record 152 seats in the 630-seat parliament with 20.8% of the vote. What does this give german intelligence the power to do? The german government is now monitoring the telephone, internet, and intercepting emails of their political opponents? They MAY also be using informants and undercover agents? The federal ministry of…
1. Its in the law for decades, it is derived from the constitution 2+3: yes. After they have been declared as extremists this is permitted under the law. 4. Only after the Bundesverfassungsgericht (supreme court) officially rules that the AFD is working against the constitution and forbids them. This must be initiated from the Bundestag, Bundesrat or from the Federal Government.
> Following his failed Beer Hall Putsch of November 1923, Hitler had renounced trying to overthrow the Weimar Republic by violent means but not his commitment to destroying the country’s democratic system, a determination he reiterated in a Legalitätseid—“legality oath”—before the Constitutional Court in September 1930. Invoking Article 1 of the Weimar constitution, which stated that the government was an expression of the will of the people, Hitler informed the court that once he had achieved power through legal means, he intended to mold the government as he saw fit. It was an astonishingly brazen statement.
> “So, through constitutional means?” the presiding judge asked.
> “Jawohl!” Hitler replied.