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Encryption Is Not a Crime

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Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#51

Post by JKCalhoun »

wulfstan wrote: post #29

Playing devil's advocate here... What is wrong with: * an expiring certificate * issued by the device manufacturer or application creator * to law enforcement * once a competent court of law has given approval * that would allow a specific user's content to be decrypted prior to expiry There are a million gradations of privacy from "completely open" to "e2e encrypted". Governments (good ones!) are rightly complaining…

Am I allowed to keep a secret?

Maybe I am not allowed to write it down and also keep it secret.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#52

Post by wulfstan »

ivl wrote: post #43
wulfstan wrote: post #29

Playing devil's advocate here... What is wrong with: * an expiring certificate * issued by the device manufacturer or application creator * to law enforcement * once a competent court of law has given approval * that would allow a specific user's content to be decrypted prior to expiry There are a million gradations of privacy from "completely open" to "e2e encrypted". Governments (good ones!) are rightly complaining…

Prior to expiry would suggest the encryption is broken from the start. Although I do disagree on the reasonable/unreasonable angle, because I don't tend to analogize the contents of your phone to the contents of your safe, but rather to the contents of your mind.

Well I get that a significant part of our lives is wrapped up in our phones nowadays, but I still try to preserve a safe haven between my ears...mostly...

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#53

Post by voidUpdate »

mathieuh wrote: post #20
loftsy wrote: post #15

Something is a crime if society determines that it should be so. Nothing more. Clearly the pressure on government to write these laws is coming from somewhere. You should engage with the arguments the other side makes.

The arguments from the other side are of the "think of the children" and "tough on crime" variety. They are purely emotional and if you try to dispute them they just respond with "so you don't care about children?". It's like trying to argue with a religious person on matters of faith, you're just not very likely to convince them. *edited to add "on matters of faith"

"Think of the children" is used so often when talking about LGBT issues, often not thinking at all about the LGBT children

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#54

Post by 01HNNWZ0MV43FF »

i5heu wrote: post #34

I do not like these framings of "not a" because it always sounds so suspicious like "we are not a cult". It puts the idea into the world that it could be a crime and maybe that it is the status quo. Much better IMHO is something like "Encryption is a fundamental right.", "Encryption protects everyone.", "Without encryption there is no democracy." and so on. Maybe "Don’t let them take your right to privacy."

I wish Americans still believed in American freedoms

Encryption is free association and free speech. Talking to someone about what I like without eavesdroppers

Transitioning gender is also free speech, freedom of expression. Presenting how I like and not how some wannabe king wants me to

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#55

Post by inglor_cz »

wulfstan wrote: post #29

Playing devil's advocate here... What is wrong with: * an expiring certificate * issued by the device manufacturer or application creator * to law enforcement * once a competent court of law has given approval * that would allow a specific user's content to be decrypted prior to expiry There are a million gradations of privacy from "completely open" to "e2e encrypted". Governments (good ones!) are rightly complaining…

Which governments are the good ones?

Is Indian government a good one, or Hungary's, or Turkish, German, or British, or the US? In the last case (well, in all cases), does "goodness" of a government depend on the current incumbent? What if a previously "good" government turns into an atrocious one?

See also: the detailed Dutch census, which was mostly harmless, until it fell into hands of the Nazis in 1940 and helped them to identify and exterminate almost all Jews in the country.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#56

Post by Retr0id »

i5heu wrote: post #34

I do not like these framings of "not a" because it always sounds so suspicious like "we are not a cult". It puts the idea into the world that it could be a crime and maybe that it is the status quo. Much better IMHO is something like "Encryption is a fundamental right.", "Encryption protects everyone.", "Without encryption there is no democracy." and so on. Maybe "Don’t let them take your right to privacy."

It's also, unfortunately, not literally/universally true. There are plenty of jurisdictions and contexts in which it is a crime.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#57

Post by wulfstan »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #51
wulfstan wrote: post #29

Playing devil's advocate here... What is wrong with: * an expiring certificate * issued by the device manufacturer or application creator * to law enforcement * once a competent court of law has given approval * that would allow a specific user's content to be decrypted prior to expiry There are a million gradations of privacy from "completely open" to "e2e encrypted". Governments (good ones!) are rightly complaining…

Am I allowed to keep a secret? Maybe I am not allowed to write it down and also keep it secret.

Yes, but if a court decides you have committed a crime, and law enforcement show sufficient cause to obtain a warrant, they can seize your secret and - if it's relevant - use it to show your state of mind when the crime was committed.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#58

Post by HDThoreaun »

ziddoap wrote: post #30
loftsy wrote: post #15

Something is a crime if society determines that it should be so. Nothing more. Clearly the pressure on government to write these laws is coming from somewhere. You should engage with the arguments the other side makes.

> You should engage with the arguments the other side makes. The arguments are "Protect the children.", "Catch terrorists.", "Catch criminals.". Those arguments have been engaged with for decades. They are purely emotional arguments. Anyone who still pushes those arguments forth is most likely doing so with ulterior motives and cannot be reasonably "engaged" with.

For what its worth the anti-encryption/anti-privacy laws have caught terrorists in the UK. My company provides data storage for their dragnet and handles various requests and Ive seen first hand 4 different instances where the UK gov watching everyones internet activity led to terrorists being caught.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#59

Post by freehorse »

loftsy wrote: post #15

Something is a crime if society determines that it should be so. Nothing more. Clearly the pressure on government to write these laws is coming from somewhere. You should engage with the arguments the other side makes.

The other side being, for instance, the surveillance lobby that pushes for chat control laws in the EU? The "arguments the other side makes" are pretty clear at this point, and nothing to do with the "think about the kids" really, not sure engaging with them is the point.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#60

Post by Fokamul »

I'm not surprised, UK became literal African/Middle-East hell hole. They've kicked out all working immigrants and replaced them with ultra-religious freaks.

And of course, UK being a country, where every form of self-defense is the most serious crime, when attacked you must call police, then lay on the ground and die, is cherry on top.

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