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Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

economist.com

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Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#51

Post by ryandrake »

pearlsontheroad wrote: post #38
oulipo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestig, but this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much. They can also (if there's a rogue government) create fake transactions to implicate you in things you haven't done

Brazil has an insane level of financial fraud and tax evasion. Pix mitigates some of that, but at the cost of privacy - something that Brazilians do not care too much about.

That’s a pretty sweeping generalization about 200M+ people!

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#52

Post by soco »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #22
oulipo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestig, but this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much. They can also (if there's a rogue government) create fake transactions to implicate you in things you haven't done

Any half competent government can always create fake transactions to implicate people, whether it’s a paper or electronic (government currency) transaction.

And a government who would resort to creating fake transactions, probably wouldn't bother with creating fake transactions at all. So that argument sounds quite out of touch.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#53

Post by guax »

oulipo wrote: post #13
SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

Interestig, but this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much. They can also (if there's a rogue government) create fake transactions to implicate you in things you haven't done

A lot of governments have that ability for electronic transactions. In Brazils case specifically it was implemented as a payment broker between institutions that participate in the SPI (instantaneous payment system) and works pretty much like any other inter bank transfer system. It is also possible to use the system semi-anonymously by using a "non bank" participant that will broker the transaction for you using random keys. Which would mean not even your bank account no gets exposed, because its not used.

As far as I can tell the legal landscape of the solution currently only allow the actual government to look at the data with the standard court orders. I believe not even the 10k report limit is applied to pix atm the same way as the other methods.

Regarding fake transactions, that would be a non concern to me, the system is only centralised in parts, the banks still hold most of the data so they would have to collaborate on this potentially leaving lots of evidence behind. Governments do not need to be subtle to screw you over, see current US deportation news.

Its not that much different than how bank transfers in Europe work in practice. The US is particularly archaic in banking technology available to the public.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#54

Post by paintbox »

afarah1 wrote: post #15

WhatsApp is omnipresent for communication in Brazil, and WhatsApp Pay was ready before Pix, but the government blocked the launch to launch Pix first.[1] I rarely see this mentioned. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/technology/brazil-suspends-w...

It's a question of national security not to let Meta eat that cake, and Brasil made the right choice.

Tangentially related, I've heard talk of EU alternative to VISA and Mastercard, which I also believe is the right direction.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#55

Post by DanielHB »

Sweden has had a similar system for several years before PIX in Brazil. It is also integrated with the digital ID system (BankID). The main difference is that the Swedish system is ran through a private organization managed by all the major banks (and the central bank) in conjunction. So the central bank doesn't have direct access to the transaction data technically.

While the Brazilian system is only interacted directly through your bank application, the Swedish application is a separate application tied to your bank account in the backend. Given the... quality of bank apps this is a huge plus. The Swedish Swish app is MUCH easier to use because it only does one thing. My Brazilian mother does not know how to send PIX because her bank app is very confusing and the PIX option is just one of many.

The BankID system of Sweden though is even more impressive than money transactions, pretty much everything government related (including healthcare, taxes, etc) and most private institutions (bank apps, Swish, digital contract signatures) is done through the unified BankID login.

People raised concerns over privacy, but the main problem really is that since these systems cut out the middle man (Visa/Mastercard) and have no fees you also have no fraud protection which is something to keep in mind when using them. Once you send the money it is gone, the banks will not give it back to you even if you got scammed. It creates a whole sort of scam industry in both countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swish_(payment)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankID

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#56

Post by souenzzo »

augusto-moura wrote: post #45
nicce wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Payment systems take huge fees. It is always good if they get back to the country and not elsewhere. Digital paying is something fundamental. Like electricity.

Brazilian Pix is free though, at least for the time being. IMO the biggest thing is not the money behind it, but the ability to track individual payments. Even that, I prefer the government to have that information, than some shady owner of a private company

PIX are free for persons. Companies may* pay for pix services. My bank (that is not a good bank) charges a fixed amount of 4 BRL (aprox 1 USD) per transaction (to send PIX. not to receive) PIX in "maquininhas" may cost ~1% to the seller.

* may: banks are allowed to charge.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#57

Post by roenxi »

simgt wrote: post #31
oulipo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestig, but this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much. They can also (if there's a rogue government) create fake transactions to implicate you in things you haven't done

> this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much As a citizen of a still kind-of-functioning democracy, I'd happily make the trade if that means Apple, Google, Visa or Mastercard don't have the information anymore.

I don't think you've thought that through - fascists and communists both have more control over the institutions of democracy than they do over those companies. The banking companies generally don't want to be involved in anything ideological except moneymaking.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#59

Post by rafaquintanilha »

ryandrake wrote: post #51
pearlsontheroad wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazil has an insane level of financial fraud and tax evasion. Pix mitigates some of that, but at the cost of privacy - something that Brazilians do not care too much about.

That’s a pretty sweeping generalization about 200M+ people!

But it's correct though

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#60

Post by dguest »

kubb wrote: post #17

Sometimes there's no point in having market solutions. You need one thing that works for everyone and is free. It's cheaper and easier this way.

The worst is a market facade for a government service. Examples in the US:

- Weather apps: various governments do the (very expensive) computing and provide the data for free. Private companies insert adds, or charge you. I use Yr, which is run by Norway and has no adds or fees. They are just sourcing public data [1].

- Taxes: the government does all the bookkeeping and enforcement, tax prep industry copies and pastes numbers into forms it lobbies to obfuscate.

[1]: https://hjelp.yr.no/hc/en-us/articles/360004008874-Weather-f...

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