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The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

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Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#51

Post by hnlmorg »

jrowen wrote: post #37
hnlmorg wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only a huge hassle now because most DJs don’t spin vinyl so a special effort has to be made for them. Modern turntables aren’t 1970s tech any more than CDJs are 1980s tech because it has a CPU in it. For starters DJ turntables are direct drive whereas the stuff from the 70s (and, to be fair, most home record players too) are belt drive. The reason vinyl turntables fail less is because there’s less stuff in them…

It’s only a huge hassle now because most DJs don’t spin vinyl so a special effort has to be made for them. If you're standing in front of an empty table before a show at an actual venue with money and stakes on the line, and the hypothetical is posed, "which is more likely to produce a smooth listening experience for our guests tonight?" the answer is always CDJs. The vibrations, the stabilization required, the needl…

I’ve seen more CDJs fail than I’ve seen sets end because someone has bumped the table while a record was spinning. And as a DJ, you don’t want the main club speakers behind you because that just makes it harder to queue up tracks, so the vibrations issue would be as a result of bad design that shouldn’t exist even in digital only clubs.

You can claim that CDJs are more reliable all you want but I call FUD on your claims of vinyl. Both as a DJ, event organiser and paying punter.

Also your claim about a completely device failure isnt the only failure mode for a CDJ. I’ve seen CDJs fail because the platter has lost its touch sensitivity. I’ve seen their buttons fail. I’ve even seen them overheat in some warehouse parties with inadequate ventilation.

But let me reiterate this: if you’re equipping a venue and you pick vinyl or CDs (or anything for that matter) because of reliability concerns then you are automatically making the wrong choice.

Their reason you shouldn’t pick vinyl has nothing to do with the risk of someone bumping the table. The reason you shouldn’t pick vinyl is simply because that’s not what most DJs will want these days.

You pick the medium based on the performers requirements not some hypothetical disaster scenario. This isn’t software engineering, it’s music performance.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#52

Post by jrowen »

hnlmorg wrote: post #51
jrowen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only a huge hassle now because most DJs don’t spin vinyl so a special effort has to be made for them. If you're standing in front of an empty table before a show at an actual venue with money and stakes on the line, and the hypothetical is posed, "which is more likely to produce a smooth listening experience for our guests tonight?" the answer is always CDJs. The vibrations, the stabilization required, the needl…

I’ve seen more CDJs fail than I’ve seen sets end because someone has bumped the table while a record was spinning. And as a DJ, you don’t want the main club speakers behind you because that just makes it harder to queue up tracks, so the vibrations issue would be as a result of bad design that shouldn’t exist even in digital only clubs. You can claim that CDJs are more reliable all you want but I call FUD on your cla…

You can claim that CDJs are more reliable all you want but I call FUD on your claims of vinyl. Both as a DJ, event organiser and paying punter.

Ok, that's fair, it's not that crazy or anything. But it is more difficult to get right.

Buttons fail and things do go wrong with CDJs but most of the time it's an inconvenience for the DJ that can be worked around and doesn't intrinsically affect the sound. We have CDJs in use 3-4 times a week taking god knows what abuse and have them serviced sometimes for small stuff but they pretty much work without issue.

if you’re equipping a venue and you pick vinyl or CDs...

That's why I said it was a hypothetical. You're not always making that choice on a given night, I wasn't talking about purchasing decisions, just what is generally going to be a safer choice from a technical perspective. It's also not a hypothetical disaster scenario, you can't act like these issues don't exist with delicate mechanical sound reproduction. It's just kinda comical, particularly on a big stage surrounded by so much digital tech, it's like why even risk it? And yes that question goes to the performer.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#53

Post by dylan604 »

jrowen wrote: post #50
emptysongglass wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their point was that you're not going to be hard-pressed to find talented vinyl DJs, as you otherwise indicated. Please don't write snide comments here. They don't belong on HN or anywhere else, really.

Ok, my bad. I just didn't feel like it meaningfully countered anything I've argued. It is true that there is a culture of vinyl DJs and nights out there, and I'm not really commenting on their relative skill level. I have no doubt they have a higher degree of passion than the set of all people who ever touched a controller or represented DJing poorly. I'm just saying that for most intents and purposes the CDJ is a co…

CDJ became standard for multiple reasons having nothing to do with your arguments. The media is much lighter and compact. I could walk in with a booklet of CDs and play a longer set than having to lug in multiple 50lb crates. CDs are not susceptible to cue burns or other wear and tear. CDJs don’t have to worry about stylus wear and tear. Fewer labels were pressing vinyl too.

Original CDJs did not have auto beat matching as they were just dumb turntables albeit with a janky plastic fisher price feeling jogwheel. It wasn’t until much later the auto syncing was available, and then the CDJ just became controllers.

The CDJ or other digital controllers did not become standard because they were the superior tactile controller.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#54

Post by jrowen »

dylan604 wrote: post #53
jrowen wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, my bad. I just didn't feel like it meaningfully countered anything I've argued. It is true that there is a culture of vinyl DJs and nights out there, and I'm not really commenting on their relative skill level. I have no doubt they have a higher degree of passion than the set of all people who ever touched a controller or represented DJing poorly. I'm just saying that for most intents and purposes the CDJ is a co…

CDJ became standard for multiple reasons having nothing to do with your arguments. The media is much lighter and compact. I could walk in with a booklet of CDs and play a longer set than having to lug in multiple 50lb crates. CDs are not susceptible to cue burns or other wear and tear. CDJs don’t have to worry about stylus wear and tear. Fewer labels were pressing vinyl too. Original CDJs did not have auto beat match…

You seem really intent on not listening to what I'm saying. What do you think my arguments are? I have mentioned the wear and tear of records, lugging them around, and the physical state of the mechanical hardware of the player. This is a core part of my argument because these things can affect the audio quality.

I never said a damn thing about tactility. You did. This is the absolute least important factor in the quality of the performance and any DJ worth their weight can perform just fine on jogwheels. If you are a DJ in 2025 asking people to set up turntables for you solely because of superior tactility, despite their numerous drawbacks and potential hazards, you are a primadonna. Which, if you're popular enough, you can get away with, because "all vinyl" is marketable to some. If you're playing at home or gigging in a bar with your own gear or your buddy's and there's no stakes, do whatever you like, obviously.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#55

Post by jrowen »

dylan604 wrote: post #53
jrowen wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, my bad. I just didn't feel like it meaningfully countered anything I've argued. It is true that there is a culture of vinyl DJs and nights out there, and I'm not really commenting on their relative skill level. I have no doubt they have a higher degree of passion than the set of all people who ever touched a controller or represented DJing poorly. I'm just saying that for most intents and purposes the CDJ is a co…

CDJ became standard for multiple reasons having nothing to do with your arguments. The media is much lighter and compact. I could walk in with a booklet of CDs and play a longer set than having to lug in multiple 50lb crates. CDs are not susceptible to cue burns or other wear and tear. CDJs don’t have to worry about stylus wear and tear. Fewer labels were pressing vinyl too. Original CDJs did not have auto beat match…

I will also say that I don't hate vinyl records or people that like to DJ with them, I get why it's cool, I think it has a place. What I do take issue with is any kind of vinyl elitism or snobbism, because it's just so backwards at the professional level. I can't think of an analogue to another area of endeavor where there is this culture or sense of disdain for using the current tools and technology to do your job better. It's nonsense gatekeeping.

People that use hand tools to make things don't have this attitude that it's "better" than using power tools, it's just a different way that they enjoy.

Please carefully read everything I've posted in this thread. I'm speaking from a position of wanting to provide the best experience to the customer and the fan of dance music events.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#56

Post by pdntspa »

jrowen wrote: post #55
dylan604 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CDJ became standard for multiple reasons having nothing to do with your arguments. The media is much lighter and compact. I could walk in with a booklet of CDs and play a longer set than having to lug in multiple 50lb crates. CDs are not susceptible to cue burns or other wear and tear. CDJs don’t have to worry about stylus wear and tear. Fewer labels were pressing vinyl too. Original CDJs did not have auto beat match…

I will also say that I don't hate vinyl records or people that like to DJ with them, I get why it's cool, I think it has a place. What I do take issue with is any kind of vinyl elitism or snobbism, because it's just so backwards at the professional level. I can't think of an analogue to another area of endeavor where there is this culture or sense of disdain for using the current tools and technology to do your job b…

Vinyl elitism is a bit of a problem but amongst the DJ community it is increasingly seen as old-man-yells-at-the-cloud. For most everything else CDJs are the superior choice; vinyl is a pain in the ass when I could just walk in with a USB drive and slot in. Plus it is a lot easier for producers to demo new tracks and test out WIPs with USB.

That said if you're good at it vinyl is still a lot of fun! And people respect it in a way that digital DJs may never experience. There is something to be said for doing some actual disc jockeying... the 'real DJ' cred is pretty great and a good way to differentiate oneself.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#57

Post by calmoo »

dylan604 wrote: post #45
jrowen wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's fair, you guys are talking about the experience of the DJ. I'm talking about the experience of the listener. In the chaotic environment of a club or festival, there are too many ways that playing vinyl on turntables can be a source of moderate to severe sound quality degradation, often through no major fault of anyone involved. As far as the DJ goes, in terms of "normal" gigs (that aren't in the by now in…

How does discussing the gear used by a dj get twisted into the perspective of the listener? I also love how standing there in the Jesus pose or chicken heading with a raised fist is entertaining for the crowd. If you need the DJ to be a conductor to show you the drop, then you’re not a good music listener. Sure, a vinyl DJ isn’t going to be jumping up and down next to the decks (unless the tables have been suspended…

Only a very small subsection of the crowd will care about how the DJing is getting done. What actually matters is music selection, mixing style, energy building etc. 99% of people don't give a shit about vinyl mastery.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#58

Post by dylan604 »

jrowen wrote: post #55
dylan604 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CDJ became standard for multiple reasons having nothing to do with your arguments. The media is much lighter and compact. I could walk in with a booklet of CDs and play a longer set than having to lug in multiple 50lb crates. CDs are not susceptible to cue burns or other wear and tear. CDJs don’t have to worry about stylus wear and tear. Fewer labels were pressing vinyl too. Original CDJs did not have auto beat match…

I will also say that I don't hate vinyl records or people that like to DJ with them, I get why it's cool, I think it has a place. What I do take issue with is any kind of vinyl elitism or snobbism, because it's just so backwards at the professional level. I can't think of an analogue to another area of endeavor where there is this culture or sense of disdain for using the current tools and technology to do your job b…

we've so lost the plot on this thread about my original comments. i said that vinyl is the better input control than a jog wheel. i'm not talking about using vinyl as the medium for playing back the sound. i'm talking about using vinyl as the control surface using Serato timecoded vinyl so that you can use the vinyl as the control surface which then controls whatever digital file system you want. you can still use that to beat match, loop, effects, whatever. but it will still be a 12" piece of physical vinyl that can be used to control things.

there is no elitism or snobbism about vinyl regarding music. it is solely about being a much better input mechanism.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#59

Post by jonwinstanley »

jrowen wrote: post #44
w_TF wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but the newer generation are using it to get more creative. Without spending half the time beat matching, they now have time to interact with the tracks more - play with stems, loops, filters, fx, scratching etc. >It’s becoming more of a live performance while this is true in theory, i find that sometimes the new tools end up becoming a crutch making djs extremely boring the extra time freed up from not having to co…

One of the commonly extolled virtues of playing vinyl is that you're "just playing records." As in, not using any fancy effects and tricks. For a lot of people, this is enough, and it's mostly about your music collection and song selection. If you're really good at vinyl, you're not doing much most of the time either and you can dance around and dig through records. Nothing about this needs to change when switching t…

I know what you mean. It’s just becoming a different thing for some people.

Playing records the old way is great.

I saw a Hor Berlin video by Serafina and she looks to be fully beat synced the whole time but is making her own music from the 4 decks she has going.

Although 1 does seem to just be a drum loop.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#60

Post by jonwinstanley »

jrowen wrote: post #44
w_TF wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but the newer generation are using it to get more creative. Without spending half the time beat matching, they now have time to interact with the tracks more - play with stems, loops, filters, fx, scratching etc. >It’s becoming more of a live performance while this is true in theory, i find that sometimes the new tools end up becoming a crutch making djs extremely boring the extra time freed up from not having to co…

One of the commonly extolled virtues of playing vinyl is that you're "just playing records." As in, not using any fancy effects and tricks. For a lot of people, this is enough, and it's mostly about your music collection and song selection. If you're really good at vinyl, you're not doing much most of the time either and you can dance around and dig through records. Nothing about this needs to change when switching t…

Presumably James Hype uses beat sync too? Surely he doesn’t have time to beat match between all the loops/hot cues etc
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