X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X • Hacker News Board

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#51

Post by acdha » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:10 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #27

For me, OS X has increasingly become too difficult for use in development. For a while there, it was the best, especially with tools like homebrew. But, it's just become too much of a headache. Too often, I find myself wasting hours trying to get over small OSS compatibility hurdles. More and more, I've been finding myself picking up my 'other' laptop, firing up VirtualBox, and running Linux straight. I do miss the b…

I'm curious, what do you have problems with? For me it's been smooth sailing since around 10.5 or so - and the only OSS problems were with projects which assumed everyone would use Linux with a certain version of GCC & autotools.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#52

Post by ctdonath » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:14 PM UTC

franzus wrote: post #31

How was that quote again? "Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"

_

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#53

Post by Craiggybear » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:15 PM UTC

vvhn wrote: post #15

interestingly, X11 is part of the "open sourced" part ( almost all of the UNIX underpinnings ) of OS X. Can you change what goes into the distribution CD provided by ubuntu ?

You can install minimal (mini or server) then add just what you want when you want it.

And yes, you've always been able to build your own distros with as much or as little as you like.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#54

Post by neverm0re » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:17 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #46

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #39

I wonder if Apple risks losing its technical (i.e. programmer) users. If OS X stops feeling like a UNIX-like OS to technical users, and they move away, OS X may receive less attention from developers. And that won't be good for the platform.

As long as it's possible to install the technical apps, I don't really care whether they ship with the system. I don't imagine many technical users would care, although I could be wrong. You never got a compiler with Mac OS X without downloading and installing one separately, and many other tools people like to use have to be downloaded separately too.

It actually always came on the install media up until very recently.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#55

Post by mikeash » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:20 PM UTC

neverm0re wrote: post #54

mikeash wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as it's possible to install the technical apps, I don't really care whether they ship with the system. I don't imagine many technical users would care, although I could be wrong. You never got a compiler with Mac OS X without downloading and installing one separately, and many other tools people like to use have to be downloaded separately too.

It actually always came on the install media up until very recently.

True, forgot about that, since it was almost always out of date and not worth using. In any case, it didn't get installed by default, so I think the point still stands.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#56

Post by smackfu » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:20 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #41

stone2020 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if [fanboy] doesn't cherry pick from the last 20 years and talks about the [article].

Cherry pick? Apple has a long history of removing what most users don't use. RS-232, Centronix ("printer"), FireWire, VGA, Ethernet, and various other ports have all been dropped over time. Floppy (both 5.25" & 3.5"), CD, DVD, and probably other media (escaping me) support gone. Blu-ray in effect dropped before even included. Likewise, various software support has been eradicated over time as use dwindled to more-has…

>Apple has a long history of removing what most users don't use.

Apple has a long history of removing what they think users shouldn't use.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#57

Post by simonster » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:27 PM UTC

jwbaker wrote: post #38

xutopia wrote: post #24

What I find disturbing here is the expectation that they would include it. I was speaking to a Microsoft evangelist two years ago and asked him why it took them so long to release a new version of Windows. He essentially told me that Microsoft does the best legacy support in the world and wanted to ensure that every single piece of important software could still be installed and work with the new version. He also exp…

That certainly does not justify the installer removing X11 from a perfectly working Mac.

If the old version of X11 will not function on 10.8, it does.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#58

Post by cageface » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:27 PM UTC

xutopia wrote: post #24

What I find disturbing here is the expectation that they would include it. I was speaking to a Microsoft evangelist two years ago and asked him why it took them so long to release a new version of Windows. He essentially told me that Microsoft does the best legacy support in the world and wanted to ensure that every single piece of important software could still be installed and work with the new version. He also exp…

There are a number of changes in the last two releases of OS X that concern me.

But removing Java and X11 from the base install doesn't bother me as long as they remain easy enough to obtain afterwards for those of us that need them.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#59

Post by runjake » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:33 PM UTC

This seems rather knee-jerk.

XQuartz is X11.app. Percentage-wise, not many users needed X11 and the ones who do should be smart enough to follow the instructions they give to get XQuartz.

Apple effectively removed engineering redundancy. It allows for a more aggressive release cycle. Apple engineers still oversee XQuartz. Many of the main committers are Apple employees working on Apple's time, for example, Jeremy Huddleston.

I liken it more to the Java distribution transition as opposed to something like Messages.app obsoleting Mail.app.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#60

Post by cstross » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:33 PM UTC

It's worth noting that OSX does provide VNC support, transparently, as "Screen Sharing". AIUI this should be compatible with other desktop machines that run a VNC server and Bonjour.

While I wouldn't want to defend Apple's decision to drop X11 support, I should note that X11 is a minority pursuit on that platform, the Apple X11 server never worked brilliantly (Apple's use of the Alt/Meta key mapping for accented characters made for a messy collision with X11 world), and if there's a more seamless screen sharing system built into the OS, why not go with the path of least resistance?