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Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

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Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#51

Post by defrost »

Terr_ wrote: post #42
defrost wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) from SE Asia for European consumption and packing ship with gold bullion in exchange. There were many actual "spice wars" fought in the region to wipe out competing crops, to build alliances, and later betray those local allies, etc.

> The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) Only ginger and turmeric are found below soil, and even then you wouldn't usually describe farmers as "literally mining for potatoes."

The airquotes on "mining" would signify to some that literal mining with excavators, screens, crushers, etc was not intended rather an operation that was literally on the scale of mining with an economic return on par with gold mining a rich vein.

Others might disagree. English is a fun language.

What cannot be disputed is the significant increase in national wealth brought home by the Dutch operations in what was known as the Dutch East Indies.

Batavia ( now Jakarta) was the capital of the VOC's lucrative spice trade for 3½ centuries.

Ships laden with tamarind, mace, cloves and nutmeg – at that time worth more, gram for gram, than gold - sailed from there to the Netherlands and often wrecked on the Western Australian coast returning with gold.

It's the value per weight part that merits comparison with Spanish aquisition of gold in the new world.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#53

Post by gostsamo »

alabastervlog wrote: post #2

When I finally got around to reading Seven Pillars , I wasn't too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing Dune . So many minor similarities, little scenes that don't quite match up but if you squint they do. Even the arc toward eventually committing war crimes, while seeking some great end for the people he's leading, feels like a connection. But also little stuff…

> make me think the author isn't aware that Lawrence had already spent a lot of time in the Middle East

it is actually mentioned in the article. you misread here, with the point being that knowing how to do something is not the same as accepting it for a normal activity.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#54

Post by alabastervlog »

zabzonk wrote: post #27
greenheadedduck wrote: post #16

[flagged]

Compared with what, for god's sake? Explosions, mad Arabs, trekking across the horrible desert, dim British superiors doing the dim British thing, dubious Turkish sexual practices, etc. This is boring??? Though I must admit O'Toole does camp it up a bit too much.

Camps it up too much?! Exactly the right amount.

Except the negotiation scene with Auda. He always seemed a touch too sarcastic in his delivery there, and it makes Auda seem foolish, which makes the scene worse. Like that one awkward cut in the middle of Jaws, this bugs me every time I watch it. Made even worse because the scene’s also wonderful, but that flaw… frustrating.

But god, the rest? It makes him otherworldly, magnetic. In a movie full of larger than life characters (omg, the real life bio of Auda!) you can see how so many mark him early as someone to be wary of, and others underestimate him (he’s clownish!) and others follow him.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#57

Post by tsimionescu »

ViktorRay wrote: post #5
softwaredoug wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivative of other works

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Fac... A tale as old as time

This has relatively little relevance to Dune, which is basically the story of how the worse dictator in history rose to power (only to be surpassed by his son's 1200 year reign of tyranny).

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#58

Post by tsimionescu »

hayst4ck wrote: post #41

With recent events I’ve been thinking about Dune lately. Once you start to compare what happens in dune to what is happening now, it's rather unpleasant. Prescience allows for the complete domination of humanity, but to some degree we already working on pre-prescience. Privatized intelligence companies have grown as part of our corporate surveillance state. These companies, like palantir, act as “truthsayers,” divini…

> We are dangerously close to uncheckable totalitarian rule.

I'm not sure we need to look to the future for that. North Korea has really shown that modern weapons and 80s era intelligence and propaganda methods, applied brutally enough, are enough to keep ~20 million people under extreme poverty and deep obedience for 80+ years now, with no signs of stopping (at least not from internal pressures) any time soon.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#59

Post by larodi »

theturtletalks wrote: post #22

Frank Herbert said him self in an interview that Dune was inspired from Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch and that book is the story of Imam Shamil of the north caucasus.

Was looking for this comment, thanks. There was also a very lengthy article by s.o. about the fact which traces the origins of many details.

The presently discussed article ‘Paul Lawrence of Dune’ sound as if written for political goals, rather than actual understanding of the origins of Dune.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#60

Post by ggm »

ggm wrote: post #37

Other people have documented Herbert's obsession with the californian ecology movement and dune re-establishment. I think he took things happening in small scale and used them as filler/detail to a story he wanted to tell in large scale.

Oregon not California.

https://niche-canada.org/2020/04/24/frank-herberts-ecology-a...

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