Earlier quoted context omitted.
So does mass driver become a single source of truth for all information about my companies entire cloud or does it only maintain a track of what's been deployed through it. I have a friend whos a manager at a large e-commerce company who's teams entire responsibility is to oversee all matters regarding their private and public cloud usage. They also manage and maintain services for internal use. I would love to recom…
If this is for the company I think it is for, they won’t use this as they have a very strong NIH culture.
Launch HN: Massdriver (YC W22) – Self-serve cloud infra without the red tape
51–60 of 61 posts
Re: Launch HN: Massdriver (YC W22) – Self-serve cloud infra without the red tape
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
If this is for the company I think it is for, they won’t use this as they have a very strong NIH culture.
Never heard of the phrase, "NIH culture" before. What does that mean?
Re: Launch HN: Massdriver (YC W22) – Self-serve cloud infra without the red tape
#53Oh boy, I have so many questions... * You want to simplify infrastructure, but there's a new learning curve here. Why did you decide to go with diagramming as a solution? What other methods did you evaluate and discard? * How does an organization with existing infrastructure implement Massdriver? * How do you handle edge cases, custom configurations, complex logic, etc.? For example, workflows that use custom scripts…
I'm here for the questions! > * You want to simplify infrastructure, but there's a new learning curve here. Why did you decide to go with diagramming as a solution? What other methods did you evaluate and discard? We try to make it so both teams have to learn as little as possible. For the ops team, we are built on the tools those teams are familiar with terraform, helm, ansible, etc. Our extension model is also ops-…
Unrelated but could be confused with what was seen in Jurassic Park as "Unix".
Re: Launch HN: Massdriver (YC W22) – Self-serve cloud infra without the red tape
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Developers need to have ownership and accountability for their infrastructure without having to become absolute cloud experts. This will never happen. You can’t own something you don’t understand. Ops and Dev are different roles for a reason, and the only reason we’ve shifted away from that is to accelerate profits; yes, you can spend your way to growth, and yes, you can run massively complex systems on hardware yo…
I am unsure what you are getting at. Our platform is all about Ops and Dev being separate jobs, but operating at a greater scale. Ops produce modules that can be consumed by Developers. Developers control the scale of their infra while Ops encodes security and compliance in the module. It seems like this would be the ideal model in this instance. If it is not, what does the ideal look like in your opinion?
The hyperscalers have convinced people that you don’t need to know how to run a database, you can just use RDS et al. You don’t need to know how to manage K8s, you can just use EKS. This is dangerously untrue, because those tools are good enough that most people can get them going and they’ll work reasonably well, right up until they don’t (especially RDBMS). Then you hit edge cases that require you to have a solid understanding of their architecture, as well as Linux administration – for example, understanding how Postgres’ bgwriter operates, and how it is affected by disk IOPS and latency, not to mention various kernel-level tunings. None of this matters in the slightest with small DBs, say, The various DB offerings (I’m going heavily on the DB example because that’s my current job) like Neon and Planetscale mostly have the right idea, IMO – stop assuming devs know or want to do ops work. They want an endpoint, and they want things to be performant, so have automatic schema and index reviews. Critically, in this model, devs are not responsible for nor accountable for the infra’s performance (more or less; discussions on schema design and its impact on DB performance aside). In other words, this has separated ops and dev.
I say they’ve mostly got it right because they do still allow you to make bad decisions, like chucking everything into a JSONB column, using UUIDv4 as a PK, etc. Realistically a service would fail if they tried refusing to allow that flexibility, so I get it.
For an in-house solution, though, this can be the case. The old school, rigid mentality of having to ask cranky graybeards to add a column had an extremely powerful benefit: bad decisions were much less likely to occur. Yes, it’s slower, and that’s a good thing. Everywhere I’ve been, bad decisions made in the name of velocity have come calling, and it’s a nightmare to fix them.
In summary, I like the idea of Massdriver quite a bit, actually; I just don’t think it’s a good idea nor accurate to say that it allows devs to be responsible for their own infra, because they largely don’t want that, nor are they capable. Not for lack of intelligence, but lack of experience. Let specialists be specialists. You want a DB? Ask the DB team, and don’t get mad when they tell you your proposed schema is hot garbage. You want more compute? Ask the infra team, and don’t be surprised when they ask you if you’ve profiled your code to determine if you actually need more.
Re: Launch HN: Massdriver (YC W22) – Self-serve cloud infra without the red tape
#55But I do think you need to have a better free tier or consider going open source if you want to pick up momentum
Re: Launch HN: Massdriver (YC W22) – Self-serve cloud infra without the red tape
#56As SRE/DevOps/Ops type, I took a look because I've sat with salespeople with your competitors. It looks like a functional platform and another "Cloud defaults are too scary? Here is a sane default option." >The hard part isn’t just technical, it’s socio-technical. Ops teams want control, devs want speed, and compliance creates friction between them. You got that right and I'm not sure another tool is going to fix it.…
> I wouldn't say Ops wants control, it's we want to stop being paged after hours because Devs yolo stuff into production without a care in the world. Not sure tooling will fix that. You have hit the nail on the head here. Our base hypothesis is the only way to solve this problem is to start with a self-service approach. If I deploy an RDS instance and nobody ever connects to it, it will never have an issue. The momen…
What you’re describing is the Holy Grail of being able to simplify a complex system without sacrificing functionality, security, performance, cost optimization, observability, etc. This dream has been around a very long time. People keep attempting to solve the problem (because, well, there is potentially money in it) and they’ve all failed in the long run (although some vendors got wealthy until the customers saw the light). cfengine yielded to Chef/Puppet/Ansible; Terraform is a mess; VMWare is the walking dead; and K8S will probably see a similar fate once people burn out on it.
The problem is the age-old one of leaky abstractions and jammed-up controls. Sure, an abstracted database component might be adequate for a simple workload, but as soon as the component reaches the limits of the abstraction, you’re stuck. You can’t get your hands dirty and solve the problem. And if you can, you might as well throw the abstraction out and configure the component natively.
On top of that, you cannot effectively abstract the observability of complex workload components. These are often highly specialized pieces of software for which the metrics are not only different, but the values of which have different meanings.
Anyway, if you figure out how to crack this nut, I applaud you. But it’s been tried before, many ways. I’m not optimistic.
Re: Launch HN: Massdriver (YC W22) – Self-serve cloud infra without the red tape
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am unsure what you are getting at. Our platform is all about Ops and Dev being separate jobs, but operating at a greater scale. Ops produce modules that can be consumed by Developers. Developers control the scale of their infra while Ops encodes security and compliance in the module. It seems like this would be the ideal model in this instance. If it is not, what does the ideal look like in your opinion?
Just as choosing the correct algorithm, the best library, or the optimal design pattern for a given task is complex and important, so is choosing, configuring, and managing infra. The hyperscalers have convinced people that you don’t need to know how to run a database, you can just use RDS et al. You don’t need to know how to manage K8s, you can just use EKS. This is dangerously untrue, because those tools are good e…
Re: Launch HN: Massdriver (YC W22) – Self-serve cloud infra without the red tape
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I wouldn't say Ops wants control, it's we want to stop being paged after hours because Devs yolo stuff into production without a care in the world. Not sure tooling will fix that. You have hit the nail on the head here. Our base hypothesis is the only way to solve this problem is to start with a self-service approach. If I deploy an RDS instance and nobody ever connects to it, it will never have an issue. The momen…
> Our goal is to enable Ops teams to build catalogs of solid building blocks that developers can build into novel architectures and safely own and operate. The collaboration between Ops and Dev is delegated to software and eases this friction. What you’re describing is the Holy Grail of being able to simplify a complex system without sacrificing functionality, security, performance, cost optimization, observability,…
I think the way we approach abstraction is fairly different from other Ops tools on the market. We are product engineers first. We are trying to pull in a lot of what makes product engineering work to the ops side. Our guidance on abstraction is very usecase driven. Instead of having an S3 module, you have a public website bucket, a landing zone bucket, and a CDN bucket. This prevents the module from outgrowing its usefulness.
If it is possible to crack this nut, we will need people like you to give us the guidance to do it. We should jump on a call, no sales. I can walk you through the platform and you can tell us why we are crazy for trying!
Re: Launch HN: Massdriver (YC W22) – Self-serve cloud infra without the red tape
#59Before taking some of these comments in earnest, remember that the hn readership has a bias But I do think you need to have a better free tier or consider going open source if you want to pick up momentum
We had a free tier for years, but we saw over and over that the organizations that gained value with Massdriver had skin in the game. They wanted to focus Ops culture around our self-service model and paying kept them focused on adoption.
We want to accommodate everyone who wants to manage Ops better and will continue to figure out how we can best do that Whether that is OSS, education or a better free tier.
Re: Launch HN: Massdriver (YC W22) – Self-serve cloud infra without the red tape
#60Before taking some of these comments in earnest, remember that the hn readership has a bias But I do think you need to have a better free tier or consider going open source if you want to pick up momentum
I appreciate the feedback! We will continue to consider that. We had a free tier for years, but we saw over and over that the organizations that gained value with Massdriver had skin in the game. They wanted to focus Ops culture around our self-service model and paying kept them focused on adoption. We want to accommodate everyone who wants to manage Ops better and will continue to figure out how we can best do that…
IMO your free tier doesn’t need to support organizations, just individual hobbyists