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Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

baltic-grid.sympower.net

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Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#51

Post by nagisa »

albiinics wrote: post #38

On the other thread someone wrote that the Baltic countries pay over 20 cents per kW, while Russian electricity is just 5 cents.

What is the point you're trying to make with this? Majority of the cost of electricity in the Baltics come from taxes and distribution fees – these well exceed 5 cents by themselves – just like elsewhere in the EU. None of the Baltic countries actually trade electricity with Belarus or Russia for quite some time either, so if there is an effect on prices due to synchronizing with the EU infrastructure, it is going to be minimal. In fact the spot market price already follows the capacity in Sweden & Finland quite closely.

As another data point, the electricity price was already ~16 cents/kWh 10 years ago and ~12c/kWh in 2009. High despite trading with Russia being a thing back then.

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#52

Post by emchammer »

foobarian wrote: post #13
RvdV wrote: post #2

On Saturday (8th of Feb), Baltic countries will disconnect from the Russian power grid and synchronise with the Continental European electricity system. They will operate in "island mode" for 33 hours, and then synchronize with the European grid frequency. The frequency is a key parameter of the grid. If there is too much load, it goes down, and if there is too much production it goes up. A lot of critical grid infra…

I am endlessly fascinated that the grid frequency across an area the size of entire countries/continents gets driven, at the end of the day, mechanically by countless titanic sized spinning machines that slow down when more load is offered, and vice versa.

The shafts are so enormous and heavy that they must be driven by an auxiliary motor when not in use in order to prevent them from permanently sagging.

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#53

Post by kencausey »

emchammer wrote: post #52
foobarian wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am endlessly fascinated that the grid frequency across an area the size of entire countries/continents gets driven, at the end of the day, mechanically by countless titanic sized spinning machines that slow down when more load is offered, and vice versa.

The shafts are so enormous and heavy that they must be driven by an auxiliary motor when not in use in order to prevent them from permanently sagging.

I assume this sag is something that would only become relevant over a fairly long period of time? Otherwise how were the devices constructed originally, I doubt they were spinning instantly.

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#54

Post by mrweasel »

foobarian wrote: post #13
RvdV wrote: post #2

On Saturday (8th of Feb), Baltic countries will disconnect from the Russian power grid and synchronise with the Continental European electricity system. They will operate in "island mode" for 33 hours, and then synchronize with the European grid frequency. The frequency is a key parameter of the grid. If there is too much load, it goes down, and if there is too much production it goes up. A lot of critical grid infra…

I am endlessly fascinated that the grid frequency across an area the size of entire countries/continents gets driven, at the end of the day, mechanically by countless titanic sized spinning machines that slow down when more load is offered, and vice versa.

The "European" grid also expands to northern Africa[0]. The Wikipedia map is a little weird, because I remember doing consulting for an energy company at the time the two Danish grids were combined. I suppose it has to do with transmission capacity, but technically Denmark can route power from west to east (the other way is typically less useful as the majority of the power generation is in the west). Western Denmark also has cable running to at least Sweden and so does Germany, so why it's not viewed as one network seem strange.

0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta...

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#55

Post by zokier »

cedilla wrote: post #43
zokier wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They were disposed to adopt 50 cycles, but American arc light carbons then available commercially did not give good results at that frequency and this was an important feature which led them to go higher "The origins of 60-Hz as a power frequency" https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/628099 Better question is why did Germans pick 50 Hz, I'm not aware of any comparable benefits of having lower frequency

If I read your source correctly, there is no real advantage of 60 Hertz or 50 Hertz, and the decision was usually due to circumstantial reasons, like supporting some existing arc-lights or difficulties with induction motors. Induction motors are also the reason why some railways chose to use 16⅔ Hertz, still in use to this day. In the end, there is no real difference between 50 or 60 Hz, there is no clear advantage t…

How is better working lighting not a real advantage?

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#56

Post by dzhiurgis »

albiinics wrote: post #38

On the other thread someone wrote that the Baltic countries pay over 20 cents per kW, while Russian electricity is just 5 cents.

Those 5 cents are enough to murder thousands of people in Ukraine and put target on yourself.

Baltics are next if putin isn’t destroyed.

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#57

Post by skeletal88 »

albiinics wrote: post #38

On the other thread someone wrote that the Baltic countries pay over 20 cents per kW, while Russian electricity is just 5 cents.

And? So? Do you think we should want to be part of russia now?

We will happily pay a bit more to get as far away from russia as possible.

Also, our prices include taxes, subsidies for renewables, the co2 scheme payments and so on.

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#58

Post by sidewndr46 »

applied_heat wrote: post #46
sidewndr46 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US did the same, Southern California was 50 Hz at first. It didn't convert until after WWII

There was 25 Hz infrastructure in Ontario until the 1950s https://www.lifebynumbers.ca/history/the-rise-and-fall-of-25...

oh wow, 25 Hz was supplied to homes? I know New Orleans still has some pumps that run on some oddball frequency. It's part of the reason why they never work during the storms (when you need them). The "grid" is just a set of colocated generation sets

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#59

Post by sidewndr46 »

cf100clunk wrote: post #49
applied_heat wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was 25 Hz infrastructure in Ontario until the 1950s https://www.lifebynumbers.ca/history/the-rise-and-fall-of-25...

Yep, the government had to go house-by-house, building-by-building replacing all electrically powered devices that could not be adapted. Thankfully it also happened early in the era of electronic devices.

it's substantially easier to run modern electronics off random frequency power than other stuff like an induction motor. A typical power supply is rated for 47 Hz- 63 Hz. But it'll happily run off almost anything higher than 10 hz and lower than 1000 hz.

universal motors in particular do not care at all about frequency

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#60

Post by cedilla »

zokier wrote: post #55
cedilla wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I read your source correctly, there is no real advantage of 60 Hertz or 50 Hertz, and the decision was usually due to circumstantial reasons, like supporting some existing arc-lights or difficulties with induction motors. Induction motors are also the reason why some railways chose to use 16⅔ Hertz, still in use to this day. In the end, there is no real difference between 50 or 60 Hz, there is no clear advantage t…

How is better working lighting not a real advantage?

It would be, but that advantage was with very specific lamps that are now obsolete for more than 100 years.
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