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3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

tenochtitlan.thomaskole.nl

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Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#51

Post by bennyfreshness »

StepWeiwu wrote: post #35

For anyone interested in what the Americas looked like before and after Columbus, I highly recommend the two books, 1491[1] and 1493[2], by Charles C. Mann. I finish the first one and I'm half way through the second one and really openend my eyes. Great reads! [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39020.1491?ref=nav_sb_ss... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9862761-1493

Also "The Conquest of New Spain" .. written as a first hand account by a soldier for Cortes.

Obviously cruel and exploitative what the conquistadors did, but it's an example how fact can be sometimes more incredible than fiction.

How a small band of soldiers got in way over their heads and had to bluff and bully their way through, or would have certainly been killed.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/108490.The_Conquest_of_N...

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#52

Post by noelwelsh »

ajross wrote: post #45
ecocentrik wrote: post #20

The presence of a comprehensive urban plan for all of these cities, with a clear grid subdivided into districts is extremely impressive. By contrast most European cities were organic and unplanned mazes.

That's sort of a simplification. Medieval European cities were absolutely "planned," but generally as defensive structures. The nature of feudal government is that it discourages investment in big centralized "cities" and builds a ton of little forts for individual aristocrats instead. So by the time the economics of Renaissance trade effectively forced the cities on the governments, the floorplans were already set a…

Indeed. European rulers did do a bit of planning when the chance arose. For example, Lisbon was rebuilt in a grid after the 1755 earthquake:

> Keen to have a new and perfectly ordered city, the king commissioned the construction of big squares, rectilinear, large avenues and widened streets – the new mottos of Lisbon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake

Paris as we currently know it is the work of Haussmann.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Pa...

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#53

Post by BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 »

The Reconquista had finally driven out the Moors from Spain in 1492 - 26 years before Cortez entered Tenochtitlan and began the dismantling of indigenous religion. The Spanish Catholics were the Wahhabis of the day.

Thought Experiment: If the Iberian Moors were still in power in 1518,would we today be calling Latin Americans "Arabs"?

Similarly, popular opinion in Israel likes to call Palestinians "Arabs" because they adopted the language of their conquerors.

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#55

Post by robwwilliams »

ecocentrik wrote: post #20

The presence of a comprehensive urban plan for all of these cities, with a clear grid subdivided into districts is extremely impressive. By contrast most European cities were organic and unplanned mazes.

Almost all inland Celtic “cities” of western Europe were built around strong fortifiable positions, aka oppida. They were definitely well planned for defense against tribal warfare and tribal invasions. Aztec cities (probably all cities) had similar root motivations—-control and defend territory.

Bibracte near Autun in Burgundy — the city Julius Ceasar had to conquer — is built at the top of a 900 meter hill;

Pyrene/Heuneburg built on a rocky spur overlooking the Danube in southern Germany is considered the first real city north of the Alps.

Titelberg in Luxembourg was built on a site easily defended on three of four sides and with plenty of space at the top.

One interesting exception—-Milan (Mediolanum). Like ancient Mexico City its defenses consisted of water; tributaries to the Po and surrounding marshes.

Venice is even more like Tenochtitlan and a more radical and more “modern” version of Milan. The Venetia hit chased into their lagoon thanks to Attila and waves if Goths.

You are right that Tenochtitlan had a much more obviously planned lurban structure. But the “organics” of Venice have their own logic, partly partly due to tides and winds but mainly due to a focus on commercial districts rather than religious/ceremonial districts.

In 1500 both cities were very large: Tenochtitlan was close to 300,000 and Venice close to 200,000.

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#56

Post by bbor »

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 wrote: post #53

The Reconquista had finally driven out the Moors from Spain in 1492 - 26 years before Cortez entered Tenochtitlan and began the dismantling of indigenous religion. The Spanish Catholics were the Wahhabis of the day. Thought Experiment: If the Iberian Moors were still in power in 1518,would we today be calling Latin Americans "Arabs"? Similarly, popular opinion in Israel likes to call Palestinians "Arabs" because they…

That's an interesting juxtaposition. I was going to comment on another (insightful!) comment here about how "the only indigenous-majority country is Greenland" brings up just how Americas-centric (plus the commonwealth...) the term "indigenous" is in the first place, and this is a great illustration of that IMO. Hopefully we can all agree that applying the term even to the British Isles gets really tough, and it gets downright impossible if you try to do it to somewhere like Palestine.

And it's no mystery why it has such big sway today in commonwealth countries as opposed to the relatively-minor importance it has in Latin America... In case anyone wasn't aware, the British Empire (and early US!) were definitely the baddies. I just recently found this quote by Jacob Howard, the liberal abolitionist senator who drafted the first sentence of the US's 14th Amendment, that I think shows how deep the assumption of animosity ran:

      I am not yet prepared to pass a sweeping act of naturalization by which all the Indian savages, wild or tame, belonging to a tribal relation, are to become my fellow-citizens and go to the polls and vote with me.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._Howard#Speech_on_the_...

On another note: you likely know this, but Columbus only got funding for his voyage because the monarchs were doing their victory-lap after finally conquering the last stronghold of the Iberian Moors, Granada. So it's all quite connected, not just by chance.

It's semi-common knowledge among nerds that the Islamic Golden Age isn't appreciated enough in western culture beyond "someone presumably was on the other side of the Crusades", but this is making me consider how the age of discovery's push for colonization might've been driven/inspired by a feeling of jealousy and inferiority compared to the rapid growth of the Islamic emirates...

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#57

Post by miningape »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #37

I’m not sure why there isn’t more of an active association between so-called “Hispanics” in North America and the Aztecs and other pre-European cultural groups in the area. The current “Hispanics” are largely descended from the natives, I think? I put “Hispanics” in quotes because it’s pretty weird to be labeled by the language of your conquerors who don’t even control anything in the area anymore.

I think you put too much stock into the conquered / conqueror narrative. These are living breathing cultures which develop in their own ways beyond the interactions of their ancestors. The majority of the population is a blend between both, and even many cultural traditions are a clear blend of both (Dia de los Muertos being probably the most obvious).

Most Hispanics I've spoken to about this see it all as apart of what makes them, them, not some artificial separation based on what modern politics thinks of the groups their ancestors were apart of. In another sense you cannot remove one part and still have the Hispanic people, and they also cannot reconstruct what has been lost.

You can also see this with groups like the Cape Coloureds who have their own distinct culture from the black, white, and indian cultures which it grew out of.

> who don’t even control anything in the area anymore

Note that they still speak Spanish and many are Catholic to this day - you can identify a lion by the marks of its claws so to speak.

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#58

Post by venusenvy47 »

noelwelsh wrote: post #27
ecocentrik wrote: post #20

The presence of a comprehensive urban plan for all of these cities, with a clear grid subdivided into districts is extremely impressive. By contrast most European cities were organic and unplanned mazes.

As a counterpoint, I much prefer the street layout of European cities to grids. I don't think the grid is particularly impressive; just a sign of a particular urban organization.

What type of layout do these use?

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#59

Post by lo_zamoyski »

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 wrote: post #53

The Reconquista had finally driven out the Moors from Spain in 1492 - 26 years before Cortez entered Tenochtitlan and began the dismantling of indigenous religion. The Spanish Catholics were the Wahhabis of the day. Thought Experiment: If the Iberian Moors were still in power in 1518,would we today be calling Latin Americans "Arabs"? Similarly, popular opinion in Israel likes to call Palestinians "Arabs" because they…

> The Spanish Catholics were the Wahhabis of the day.

I don’t understand this comparison.

> If the Iberian Moors were still in power in 1518,would we today be calling Latin Americans "Arabs"?

This assumes the Moors would have ventured to the Americas in the first place. At the very least, they didn’t have the same incentives as the Spanish to do so.

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