Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away • Hacker News Board

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#51

Post by mattbrewsbytes » Thu, Jan 30, 2025, 1:44 AM UTC

The reason a lot of things appear to be re-invented is that its Resume Driven Development but applied to auto head lights. Or blame product people for needing to come up with something even though the product is probably “done” from a consumer standpoint of fulfilling the needs. Smart refrigerators come to mind.

I keep watching stuff on youtube where people find really old cars, like 50-60 years old, and they walk thru what needs fixing to get it running. Sometimes they add some gas to a 50yo engine in a barn find and replace spark plugs and it fires up, its really amazing.

Man I sound like my grandfather lamenting about “they don’t build them like they used to”.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#52

Post by ghaff » Thu, Jan 30, 2025, 2:03 AM UTC

jcgrillo wrote: post #50

ghaff wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leasing is mostly just a financing model for people who like to have new cars. It hasn't been economically sound for individuals maybe ever. The shortest I've owned a new car was 5 years and that's because it was a dog from Dodge. Exception may be some European cars which have a reputation for very expensive dealer maintenance after the warranty period.

Mercedes dealers in particular are thieves. Mercedes-Benz of Boston tried to bait and switch me replacing an AC compressor on my 1999 E300D Turbo. Initial quote was $1750, after they had the car a couple days they made up some bullshit about the condenser being bad and said therefore it would be $5000. I told them to go fuck themselves, bought the necessary refrigerant handling equipment, and did it myself. This was…

If you don’t want to do your own maintenance, I’ve been told that you really need a good independent mechanic for German cars unless you want to spend a fortune.

At one point I did an event at BMW’s place in SC and was really tempted but came to my senses.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#53

Post by jcgrillo » Thu, Jan 30, 2025, 2:14 AM UTC

mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #51

The reason a lot of things appear to be re-invented is that its Resume Driven Development but applied to auto head lights. Or blame product people for needing to come up with something even though the product is probably “done” from a consumer standpoint of fulfilling the needs. Smart refrigerators come to mind. I keep watching stuff on youtube where people find really old cars, like 50-60 years old, and they walk th…

It's very true, though. There's something to be said about technology you can build without a huge capital investment. With maybe $50k worth of tools and materials you could probably build a vehicle from ~1980. You can't manufacture them at scale, and if you factor in your time it won't pay out, but you could in principle get it done with accurate drawings.

Proprietary software, though, is a huge moat. And the complexity that comes with it. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to build more modern cars as one-offs, except that the systems are so locked down

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#54

Post by jcgrillo » Thu, Jan 30, 2025, 2:18 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #52

jcgrillo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mercedes dealers in particular are thieves. Mercedes-Benz of Boston tried to bait and switch me replacing an AC compressor on my 1999 E300D Turbo. Initial quote was $1750, after they had the car a couple days they made up some bullshit about the condenser being bad and said therefore it would be $5000. I told them to go fuck themselves, bought the necessary refrigerant handling equipment, and did it myself. This was…

If you don’t want to do your own maintenance, I’ve been told that you really need a good independent mechanic for German cars unless you want to spend a fortune. At one point I did an event at BMW’s place in SC and was really tempted but came to my senses.

Yeah it's 100% true. A good independent mechanic you trust is very important if you're not DIY

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#55

Post by jcgrillo » Thu, Jan 30, 2025, 2:25 AM UTC

MarkMarine wrote: post #17

rUsHeYaFuBu wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen the inside of a modern ICE vehicle? You pretty much need trade school to become a qualified mechanic anyways. Additional, with trade school one can increase the amount they can get paid. They educate on all vehicle types too, not just ICE.

I have a modern diesel truck and a 1988 Land Cruiser. I’ve been a mechanic since I was 14 (farm tractors) and was a helicopter mechanic and crew chief in the marines, then a transmission mechanic on cars during college. I’ve got a mechanical engineering degree. The Land Cruiser requires a lot more of my time working on it, but it’s a dream. I can fix something in a couple hours. The diesel, it’s a nightmare. Everythi…

The same overcomplex, proprietary computer surveillance systems infect all electric cars because they're all modern. They're all (for some reason?) connected to the internet, subject to OTA updates, and completely locked down to the end user. If a manufacturer would make an EV with open software and systems--no useless internet crap--for less than $100k I'd buy it tomorrow.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#56

Post by antisthenes » Thu, Jan 30, 2025, 4:14 AM UTC

pbronez wrote: post #14

recursivedoubts wrote: post #9

I have some faint hope that scout will go the other way: https://www.thedrive.com/news/scout-wants-to-build-evs-you-c...

Aptera too https://aptera.us/giving-you-the-right-to-repair/

Aptera's been trying to make a car for 15+ years now.

I applaud the sentiment, but this has about as much impact as a random blog.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#57

Post by wakawaka28 » Thu, Jan 30, 2025, 4:17 AM UTC

m463 wrote: post #8

I think cars will become either disposable or large assemblies will need to be replaced in full. I'm reminded of how the tv repairman disappeared. TVs too integrated to fix easily, too complicated to fix economically.

Unless cars become extremely cheap (they have done the opposite), it will never be acceptable for them to be disposable. Materials and processes are better than ever yet cars are becoming less repairable. Manufacturers deliberately make things difficult to repair to encourage people to buy new cars, but that only goes as far as people will tolerate it. We aren't talking about pocket change. A new car is usually in the top two largest purchases anyone makes, and they really should be built to last at least 20 years. There's no reason why they can't be built to last 50 or 100 years, or indefinitely (with repairs).

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#58

Post by BoorishBears » Thu, Jan 30, 2025, 9:23 AM UTC

kridsdale1 wrote: post #45

HPsquared wrote: post #13

Optimizing for cost, weight & performance often comes at the cost of repairability. Buyers compare cars on measurable statistics so they'll buy the one that is cheaper, faster etc. Watch a Sandy Munro video and see the design details that get a lot of praise. The gigacasting is a nice example: great for performance and manufacturing, but bad for repair. Or, the car not having a separate floorpan and mounting the seat…

I guess I break the mold. I buy Toyota/Lexus that are inferior on stats today, but will be fine in 15 years while the other competitors build this year will have been in a scrap yard for 10 already.

I do homework on "unreliable" cars, take good care of them (regular oil changes, preventative maintenance, etc.) and they survive me thrashing them constantly without issue.

The real secret finding what specific platforms/engines/transmission packages have earned a track record for being reliable.

Most Toyotas sold are their reliable models so they get a good track record, but Toyota has put out some poor engines even in cars otherwise known as being reliable, like the Camry

BMW has had some extreme stinkers like their early hot V V8, but there's also BMWs that package the B58 and ZF8, which make such a reliable combo that they're in a currently sold Toyota.

I recommend anyone buying a car and worried about reliability search their specific engine and transmission to find issues, and avoid first generations with no track record because a very common story is a refresh fixing a design flaw in an first revision

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#59

Post by tonymet » Thu, Jan 30, 2025, 6:36 PM UTC

jcgrillo wrote: post #30

tonymet wrote: post #20

Transportation has a higher demand for reliability and maintainability than our entertainment devices. Not every "innovation" is positive. A 2% efficiency gain with 300% maintenance cost and 25% lifespan is a major loss. Let's act like responsible engineers here and remember what our job is. We are supposed to be creating tools with longevity & utility that improve welfare. We are not here to create toys and infotain…

> We are supposed to be creating tools with longevity & utility that improve welfare. We are not here to create toys and infotainment for people. The same can be said for b2b SaaS (which is where I work), and yet... For some reason we've lost the core concept of what makes a tool good . I think there are a few components (not an exhaustive list): 1. When you are using a tool it disappears. You don't know you're using…

I really appreciate your thoughts on this. Tools are key engagement with the world. A good tool is empowering , and a poor tool is demoralizing. I'm glad there are others pondering this issue.