The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale? • Hacker News Board

Re: The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale?

#51

Post by Someone » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 9:45 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #4

michaelpinto wrote: post #2

If we're still talking about him half a year after he's gone he must have gotten something right. I think something that techies don't see is that Jobs real gem is Pixar, a company that Lucas couldn't make work and a company that became Disney's animation studio. My bet is that as these devices go from being cool gadgets to the mundane that Jobs will be remembered for those Pixar films which will seem charming even i…

No one doubts that he did some things right, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he mistreated nearly everyone who helped him make Apple the company it is today. He should have been fired when he couldn't get along with anyone at Atari and he should have been fired the first time he ever called anyone a "shithead" at Apple. I've worked for an abusive boss before, and no amount of success can excuse the fact that as…

Complete failure? Are you arguing that the products that came out during his reign are below par? Above par despite his supervision? Not worth the psychological damage he did?

I doubt Apple would be where it is today if he had played mr. Nice.

Also, is there data that supports a claim that, e.g. churn was higher under his leadership than under other managers in similar situations? I am not aware of any, and it would not surprise me if there is data supporting the claim that churn was lower (in some sense just as Napoleon was able to breed loyalty, even though he led his soldiers to war again and again). For example, from what I have read about Steve, when working for him, he could be very harsh, but you would not have to worry about being shot in the back. That is worth something.

Re: The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale?

#52

Post by vectorpush » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 9:48 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #37

alaskamiller wrote: post #34

If you believe in MBTI, Steve Jobs is pegged as an ENTJ. This is the brief definition of an ENTJ: "They tend to be self-driven, motivating, energetic, assertive, confident, and competitive. They generally take a big-picture view and build a long-term strategy. They typically know what they want and may mobilize others to help them attain their goals. ENTJs are often sought out as leaders due to an innate ability to d…

> A generation of people are going to try really hard to emulate a cult status figure's personality but at the end of the day that's all it really is: a bad fidelity copy. Reminds me of what happens when I use Pandora. Instead of revealing a bunch of bands I like, Pandora gives me a bunch of bands that sound like bands that I like. Don't imitate. Attune yourself to value.

>Pandora gives me a bunch of bands that sound like bands that I like.

That's a feature, not a bug.

Re: The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale?

#53

Post by nsns » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 9:53 PM UTC

TheSOB88 wrote: post #31

nsns wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you describe is very childish behavior, infantile even, but I believe you are right about Jobs being like that, and I think this might explain why he was so good at making toys adults crave like children. But we shouldn't idolize someone like that, IMHO, this isn't healthy conduct. Even if he has made a lot of money during certain periods of his life, it does not vindicate his behavior or make him a proper role…

Maybe we can idolize him and not seek to become him, but try to be somewhere in the middle.

Jobs wasn't just a successful visionary, he was also a guy who bought a hundred identical black polo shirts to last him till he die, and someone who refused medical help for an entire year and tried to cure his cancer thru diet (which might have made a fatal difference, we'll never know), Do you really wish to idolize him, or just the benign and successful aspects of his personality? Can these even be differentiated?

Re: The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale?

#54

Post by seunosewa » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 10:08 PM UTC

nsns wrote: post #53

TheSOB88 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we can idolize him and not seek to become him, but try to be somewhere in the middle.

Jobs wasn't just a successful visionary, he was also a guy who bought a hundred identical black polo shirts to last him till he die, and someone who refused medical help for an entire year and tried to cure his cancer thru diet (which might have made a fatal difference, we'll never know), Do you really wish to idolize him, or just the benign and successful aspects of his personality? Can these even be differentiated?

You don't want to idolize ANYONE, but you can respect imperfect people for the good things they did.

Re: The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale?

#55

Post by state » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 10:17 PM UTC

There are a number of things that I find annoying about stories like this about Jobs — but the most pronounced is that I doubt he would have condoned his own behavior as seen from the outside. Jobs' attitude is a side-effect of his convictions.

I think people seem to overlook how a personality like that actually works. Oftentimes this happens while overtly being assholes in an attempt to imitate someone they admire but could probably never become.

Re: The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale?

#56

Post by dedward » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 10:32 PM UTC

nsns wrote: post #23

imgabe wrote: post #12

One of the things that struck me while reading Jobs' biography was how frequently he cried. Numerous times throughout he's described as weeping, sometimes at momentous occasions, like getting fired from Apple, and sometimes over relatively trivial matters. Think about it. When was the last time you saw a grown person cry about something at work? Ever? I think one of the things that made Steve Steve, and made him capa…

What you describe is very childish behavior, infantile even, but I believe you are right about Jobs being like that, and I think this might explain why he was so good at making toys adults crave like children. But we shouldn't idolize someone like that, IMHO, this isn't healthy conduct. Even if he has made a lot of money during certain periods of his life, it does not vindicate his behavior or make him a proper role…

Doesn't need idolizing - he made himself an icon, and there's the right-place-right-time factor. His biography never says "Be like me" by any stretch of the imagination.

Nobody is a perfect role model - everyone has faults. Is his attention to detail something we shouldn't forget? I think so. Is childish behavior the way to lead people? Not if it means tantrums and inappropriate responses - but then again, we may lose to much of the child in all of us when we hit the corporate world... there should be room for some playtime and wonder in the things we build.... nobody is perfect.

It's awfully hard to say a billionaire who made such an impact on people all over the place and died far too young isn't someone we should learn a bit about if we can, is it? (There are more out there than just Steve Jobs, of course... biographies exist. Jobs is just fascinating and current.)

Re: The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale?

#57

Post by dedward » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 10:34 PM UTC

datalus wrote: post #42

brandall10 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said anything about money? He changed the game multiple times in multiple industries, and had his greatest successes as he was fighting death. If you compare his net impact vs. actual wealth he was a pauper... and esp if you look at his stake in Apple, as the majority of his wealth was from Pixar/Disney. There are too many 'responsible adults' wallowing in mediocrity who more than anything else actually drag the…

Ah the American conquer, might is right arguement. No wonder your country ranks pretty high on the misery scale... There's more to life than "dominating" industries. Edit: I should qualify this a bit more. If it does make you happy to basically have no life outside of a career, then go for it. Everyone's happiness is something only they can answer for themselves. Some people can tolerate being lonely, and I'm pretty…

As a Canadian, I can say that Americans have more fun in life than just about anyone. Sure, we canucks and the rest of the world like to call them out on their shortcomings all the time, but they brought us disneyland and superman, etc.

Re: The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale?

#58

Post by adavies42 » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 10:35 PM UTC

victork2 wrote: post #3

I have read Steve Jobs biography and this is definitively a cautionary tale and a great warning for anybody, but for other reasons that stated in this article. I am no Apple fan, as a matter of fact I don't like the look and feel of their product but I gained a great admiration for Steve Jobs because he seemed like a man in immense suffering. I'm not talking about the obvious physical pain of cancer and all his crazy…

> But he's the paragon of the self made man, in the Ayn Rand sense [...]

I was just thinking this. I'm sure Jobs hated Rand, given his politics, but he sounds an awful lot like Hank Rearden in TFA.

Re: The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale?

#59

Post by eropple » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 10:44 PM UTC

vectorpush wrote: post #52

stcredzero wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A generation of people are going to try really hard to emulate a cult status figure's personality but at the end of the day that's all it really is: a bad fidelity copy. Reminds me of what happens when I use Pandora. Instead of revealing a bunch of bands I like, Pandora gives me a bunch of bands that sound like bands that I like. Don't imitate. Attune yourself to value.

> Pandora gives me a bunch of bands that sound like bands that I like. That's a feature, not a bug.

Only if you don't differentiate "sounds like" and "are appealing in the same way." If you don't, having a conversation about this will be fruitless.

Re: The Story of Steve Jobs: An Inspiration or a Cautionary Tale?

#60

Post by pyre » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 10:46 PM UTC

mcantelon wrote: post #44

crag wrote: post #32

Wasn't he a buddhist? Not that that means anything. Buddhist's are more then capable of being shit-heads. But if he was a practicing buddhist.. wouldn't he had recognized what leads to suffering? Desire of course. Desire to be be perfect. Or maybe his desire to prove he was right? There are other words I'd use to describe him (and several other corporate giants); arrogance comes to mind. Sometimes these men think the…

>Why I love hearing a billionaire say, "I'm a self made man". Oh really? So all the people who worked for you, cooked for you, kept your schedule, managed your companies, investments and life didn't do a damn thing? Really? The individualist "self made man" notion seems a conceit designed to introduce the concept of aristocracy, which humans seem drawn to, to modern capitalism.

aristocracy? The aristocracy were hardly 'self-made.' It was inherited. While a 'self-made' billionaire can't claim to have no employees, he probably did work for his money.