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World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

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Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#51

Post by exe34 »

thereisnospork wrote: post #11
ok_dad wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an industrial plant with an attached power plant, it’s not like families will be using this power.

How is it you think families get power, goods, and services? Ammonia makes fertilizer - this plant will help feed millions, dropping food costs. Even if the power this plant is generating won't go directly to families, it will be going into the things they eat and the things they buy in place of power they can use directly.

is this the last place on earth to build that kind of industry?

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#52

Post by exe34 »

kortilla wrote: post #29

Headline is dramatic but misleading. Essentially the entire 7/10 of the planet in the ocean has skies as dark as this. Clarity significantly reduces the footprint, but there are massive chunks of mountain ranges untouched by human development in both hemispheres that would be just as clear as here. If clear skies are important enough to block a new development, they should just unlock some land in the Himalayas or Ro…

could you move the industry there?

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#53

Post by otteromkram »

bongodongobob wrote: post #48
seattle_spring wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is too bad, because it takes a special kind of heartless, empathy-lacking ghoul to disregard such things that make life on this Earth worth living to so many people.

Pretty fucked up to say that people that don't have dark skies even on their radar with everything going on right now are heartless and lacking empathy. It shows a gross misunderstanding of the average person today and really shows your lack of empathy. I shoot astro, I love it. I wish skies were darker. But I certainly don't blame my comrades for not giving two fucks about how the sky looks when they are asleep afte…

"...when they are asleep after working two jobs to pay rent."

No one else sleeps or works, right?

Plus, who knows why they work more than one job. Maybe they were "too smart" for school, found out later that they weren't, and now are grasping to close the gap due to hubris and ignorance early on in their life. No shame in making up for lost time/wages, but that's not our fault and we shouldn't have to constantly bend and bow in order to appease the LCD crowd.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#54

Post by cubefox »

WorkerBee28474 wrote: post #31
ungreased0675 wrote: post #15

Would it be unthinkable to just NOT have bright lights pointed at the sky all night? Could they still do this project with severe restrictions on light emissions? If there’s some reason it absolutely must include hundreds of outdoor sodium vapor lights then build it somewhere else.

> Would it be unthinkable to just NOT have bright lights pointed at the sky all night? That's possible, and directed/shielded lighting is commercially available. However, the project's critics have already said that no plan the project comes up with will be good enough - “Even if [AES] do a perfect job, using perfect lights that probably don’t even exist and perfect shielding, there will be an impact and that will be…

> That's possible, and directed/shielded lighting is commercially available.

Given the size of the site (over 3000 hectares), even lights purely pointed at the ground will still create large amounts of bounce lighting. The ground reflects light up in the sky.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#55

Post by aragilar »

oefrha wrote: post #46
aragilar wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan of "don't build a major industrial centre 5km from the best site for optical astronomy in the world, build it somewhere else" seems like a perfect viable one to me.

Well, local people probably care about economic development and don’t give a rat’s ass about astronomy. So the question becomes, who’s going to compensate for the loss of economic development? (By local I don’t mean strictly local, in case of counter arguments along the line that there are no/very few local people to begin with.) Disclosure: I’m a former physicist and I have personally operated an optical telescope w…

My understanding is ESO uses local labour where possible (e.g on building the ELT, maintenance, catering, transport), so it's not like it's one guy in a shed, there are jobs and economic benefits. That's why this seems so confusing to me, I can't see why you can't have both?

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#56

Post by bongodongobob »

otteromkram wrote: post #53
bongodongobob wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty fucked up to say that people that don't have dark skies even on their radar with everything going on right now are heartless and lacking empathy. It shows a gross misunderstanding of the average person today and really shows your lack of empathy. I shoot astro, I love it. I wish skies were darker. But I certainly don't blame my comrades for not giving two fucks about how the sky looks when they are asleep afte…

"...when they are asleep after working two jobs to pay rent." No one else sleeps or works, right? Plus, who knows why they work more than one job. Maybe they were "too smart" for school, found out later that they weren't, and now are grasping to close the gap due to hubris and ignorance early on in their life. No shame in making up for lost time/wages, but that's not our fault and we shouldn't have to constantly bend…

If you're surprised the night sky isn't top on people's minds today, you live in a very different world than most.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#57

Post by nichos »

exe34 wrote: post #49
hackingonempty wrote: post #2

If you were wondering if there was any issue even less important to Americans than the lives of pedestrians and cyclists, it is dark skies.

[flagged]

I don't know of any Americans that advocate for shooting of school children.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#58

Post by throw5959 »

aragilar wrote: post #55
oefrha wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, local people probably care about economic development and don’t give a rat’s ass about astronomy. So the question becomes, who’s going to compensate for the loss of economic development? (By local I don’t mean strictly local, in case of counter arguments along the line that there are no/very few local people to begin with.) Disclosure: I’m a former physicist and I have personally operated an optical telescope w…

My understanding is ESO uses local labour where possible (e.g on building the ELT, maintenance, catering, transport), so it's not like it's one guy in a shed, there are jobs and economic benefits. That's why this seems so confusing to me, I can't see why you can't have both?

Do you mean that the economical output of astronomy and this industrial project is comparable?

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#59

Post by watersb »

On another piece of the electromagnetic spectrum, the ALMA radio telescope is also in the Atacama desert, north east of Paranal.

The government agreed to a radio quiet zone in the areas surrounding ALMA.

But now there's Starlink and other satellite constellations coming on line at an unprecedented pace.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#60

Post by m463 »

Daub wrote: post #40

When I lived in the Welsh countryside, there were occasional nights where I could not see my hand in front of my face. The requirements were that it was new moon, and that there was slight fog. We also lived deep in a valley, which helped. I had great fun navigating my way to the local pub in complete darkness. The odd thing is that when I recount that experience, some people refuse to believe me. Of course they are…

peril-sensitive sunglasses wouldn't help!
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