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Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

eff.org

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Re: Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

#51
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> between every paragraph is an ad and a video fixed to the top/bottom following you as you scroll and they change once the video ends And of course Chrome, Firefox, and Safari don't provide a reliable way to stop those obnoxious auto-playing videos.

Part of that comes down to the ad industry engineering their way around user video playback controls. I’ve heard of them even doing things like displaying video ads as sequences of static image files swapped out with JS.

This also brings the fastest computers to their knees because it bypasses hardware acceleration.

Re: Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Organized P2P networks can/should be used enable hosting

> Organized P2P networks can/should be used enable hosting This is financial engineering. Someone still needs to pay for the metal and electricity.

Yeah? People do that for fun. A $160 minipc is capable of serving 1Gb/s of web traffic without breaking a sweat (limited by far by the NIC, and for most people, their Internet connection). At a 20W TDP even at 20¢/kWh you're looking at ~$3/month to drive it full tilt.

If I'm reading it right, the wikimedia grafana indicates they're usually under 20 Gb/s for reference.

Re: Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me the most sad part is that it's all worthless. If Pepsi does better than Coke, I DONT CARE. And yet, tens of thousands of our fellow citizens toil away hours every day to try to convince us one way or another. And in the process make the world uglier and more hostile. To summarize this: advertising is a zero sum game. (In the few instances where it isn't, it's also a good thing).

I disagree, since the feelings it can cause are still real. If making people excited through marketing makes them more motivated to work (increasing their "utility" in dry econ terms), that's the same kind of value creation as any physical product. I'd rather summarize the ill effects as "Nobody is immune to propaganda."

I also disagree, but for the opposite reason :p (though imo. it was an excellent summary of a rambly diatribe)

Advertising does not make people excited, or happy, in general. The type that does (movie trailers, mostly) can stay.

In general, advertising makes people unhappy.

Think of the teenagers who see photoshoped, paper-thin fashion models and wish they were them. And then spend their money fruitlessly trying to be something that is impossible.

Think of the people convinced by advertising to invest in scams, or to gamble their money away.

This one gets me personally - I can't see a twix ad without wanting to buy a twix. And yet the world would be better if I didn't! They aren't healthy and I was perfectly happy before I saw the ad and then realized I needed one.

And in general they are UGLY. They demand your attention. There's a reason most people here use uBlock.

Re: Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

#54
post #5

I cannot understand how people accept ads. It triggers me so much when I open an article and between every paragraph is an ad and a video fixed to the top/bottom following you as you scroll and they change once the video ends. YT is crazy with their multiple ads unskippable sometimes 30 mins long wtf. Thank you UBO regarding tracking: I guess I don't care about that since I get these updates from Google about where I…

[deleted]

Re: Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You joke but it’s actually shocking how often you’ll hear the refrain repeated that without ubiquitous advertising we could not possibly have a free public internet.

Why is it shocking? It seems to be true - I for one am not ready to pay for most of the online services I use

If advertising were to disappear overnight, I'd argue the internet would go on.

First, there was an internet before there were ads. When there's a need there's a way and BitTorrent and Napster taught us that P2P is feasible when the users care about it.

Then there's the issue of competitive advantage. If the newspaper from the next town over has a website then my local newspaper has to have a website too. So the incentives would switch from "I'll finance this service with ads" to "this website costs money but that's another cost of doing business".

And finally, people do pay for services. Patreon and Wikipedia are examples where a bunch of users provide the funds for those who can't/won't pay for a service.

Would all services survive? No. And it would certainly be a different experience. But I believe an internet driven by a mixture of fans and sensible economic strategy wouldn't be a bad thing.

Re: Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

#56

EFF has been nowhere on these issues for the past two decades, and it is disingenuous to pretend they oppose it. EFF have done good work vis-a-vis government surveillance, but EFF has always been a libertarian project to promote and protect tech power by weakening government oversight of the net.

There are multiple falsehoods in your comment.

EFF have been putting some significant distance between themselves and their (admittedly, true) Libertarian origins. Cory Doctorow (long-time public-face, current special advisor) has distinctly non-Libertarian leanings.

https://www.eff.org/about/special-counsel#main-content>

The more-libertarian John Gilmore and Brad Templeton are both emeriti:

https://www.eff.org/about/emeritus#main-content>

I've raised the question with Cory previously, response was, effectively, that there's a considerable overlap between viewpoints, regardless of ideology. And I'd personally heard Templeton express concerns over Google over two decades ago (Q&A at a Stanford event).

My read is that viewpoints at EFF are diverse, and that concerns over commercial surviellance are also longstanding. E.g., Privacy Badger, aimed directly at same, was released over a decade ago, 14 July 2014:

https://web.archive.org/web/20250000000000*/https://www.eff....>

Re: Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

#57
post #5

I cannot understand how people accept ads. It triggers me so much when I open an article and between every paragraph is an ad and a video fixed to the top/bottom following you as you scroll and they change once the video ends. YT is crazy with their multiple ads unskippable sometimes 30 mins long wtf. Thank you UBO regarding tracking: I guess I don't care about that since I get these updates from Google about where I…

> I cannot understand how people accept ads. Advertisements have been around for thousands of years. The concept predates industry, democracy, and (depending on who you ask) capitalism itself.

Yes, but now the ads watch us.

Re: Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

#58
post #6

But how can the poor websites sustain themselves

You joke but it’s actually shocking how often you’ll hear the refrain repeated that without ubiquitous advertising we could not possibly have a free public internet.

And no one stops to ask how the internet sustained itself from the years 1995 to 2005. Or big search engines, for that matter. The answer is that they were smaller and their revenue was based on selling real things, not constant hassle and attention-grabbing. The internet was not an ad hellscape back then simply because every single market and every single sector was smaller. It's big now because tech giants are supercharged growth-addicted behemoths.

It was better when it was smaller. Pretty much everything is in some stage of enshittification.

Re: Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

#59
post #5

I cannot understand how people accept ads. It triggers me so much when I open an article and between every paragraph is an ad and a video fixed to the top/bottom following you as you scroll and they change once the video ends. YT is crazy with their multiple ads unskippable sometimes 30 mins long wtf. Thank you UBO regarding tracking: I guess I don't care about that since I get these updates from Google about where I…

> I cannot understand how people accept ads. Advertisements have been around for thousands of years. The concept predates industry, democracy, and (depending on who you ask) capitalism itself.

Widespread and significant use of advertising dates to the latter half of the 19th century, most especially as a principle revenue basis for periodical publications.

There's an excellent, short, readable, and information-dense source on this, by Hamilton Holt (a magazine publisher himself) published in 1909, describing roughly the prior half-century's remarkable development of an advertising-funded publishing industry, and the absolutely corrosive effects visible even then, Commercialism and Journalism. Quoted in the first pages an observation from the 1880s, already nearly three decades prior:

There is no such thing in America as an independent press. I am paid for keeping honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. If I should allow honest opinions to be printed in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation, like Othello's, would be gone. The business of a New York journalist is to distort the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the foot of Mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. We are the tools or vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. Our time, our talents, our lives, our possibilities, are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.

https://archive.org/details/commercialismjou00holtuoft/page/...>

Holt doesn't name his source, I've since learnt it was John Swinton, himself a journalist (chief editorial writer of the New York Times in the 1860s):

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Swinton>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Swinton_(journalist)>

Re: Online Behavioral Ads Fuel the Surveillance Industry

#60
post #6

But how can the poor websites sustain themselves

Quoting myself from a previous post, I think we can solve several problem at once; including funding the sites you visit. Now I just have to get off my lazy ass and build it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41677216

“ I’d like to see more work put into finding ways to utilize the work from PoW. For example I have an idea to use Monero’s CPU-favoring PoW for PoW based DDoS protection as seen in Tor [0]. When a user accesses a website they are given a PoW challenge to complete. This challenge is actually for a share of mining rewards as in P2Pool. The mining reward share would go to the website operator. This would harmoniously improve several things about the web. First, it would help protect websites against layer-7 DDoS attacks. Second, this L7 DDoS protection reduces the webs dependence on companies such as Cloudflare, the internets biggest man-in-the-middle. Third, it provides a way to pay website owners costing the users a small amount of their computers time and energy in much the same way as ads do currently. Fourth, it reduces the webs dependence on advertising as the way to fund your website. Fifth and finally, it helps secure the web-native currency in which website operators would be paid and which others can use for whatever they want.

I think such a solution would be truly beautiful.

0: https://blog.torproject.org/introducing-proof-of-work-defens...

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