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Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

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Re: Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

#51
post #39
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already botched a gear down landing, which is almost never mentioned. They retracted the gear and did a teardrop go around from a headwind into a tailwind belly flop. Stinks of bad crew resource management and ATC which is why the ATC and airline for raided by SK officials.

We don’t know why the pilot elected to double back instead of go around. There may have been indications of a progressive failure that indicated that course of action, but it does seem hasty. That haste may have caused them to not be able to set up a stabilized, minimum speed approach, and may have contributed to the long touchdown, which certainly was a contributing factor. If there were significant winds it would h…

They retracted the gear after the first landing attempt. I suspect they either missed it on the teardrop or had secondary hydraulic failure and no time to do a gravity drop. I would err on the side of crew error because there were clear signs the hydraulic systems were functioning (thrust reverser and that they could retract the gear in the first place). Hydraulics don’t fail instantly and one engine was spooling still on landing.

That's why EASA says put the plane down if there’s a strike on approach. Ryanair 4102 is a good example of a close one there as a reference.

Re: Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

#52
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... the significance of the concrete wall's location about 250m (820ft) off the end of the runway." "...the runway design "absolutely (did) not" meet industry best practices, which preclude any hard structure within at least 300m (984ft) of the end of the runway." "it emerged that remarks in Muan International Airport's operating manual, uploaded early in 2024, said the concrete embankment was too close to the end o…

I don’t disagree with that. It is a compounding issue but I am much more interested in what happened up to that point. Many many small things or one big thing went wrong for it to even get to that point.

But don't forget, that point you mention is the point where the people were killed.

Re: Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

#53
post #43
post #35

Runway’s gotta end somewhere

Technically it could loop around the earth.

You don’t even have to make it that long, you can just make a large circle of runway:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endless_runway

Re: Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

#54
post #36

How much difference would an additional 50m have made?

To be brutally honest, the plane would crash about a second later, so approximately none whatsoever. But this isn’t the right question to ask, as it isn’t the right question to ask why the wall was there. Why did the pilot and ATC decide it’s a good idea to attempt a gear up landing in the wrong direction is a good start.

I recall back in 2020, when Pakistan International flight 8303 belly landed at Karachi, slid down the runway, and then took off again and had a go at going around, the investigation showed that between them, the pilots just screwed up on having the landing gear down and had a go at landing without it for no other reason than they fumbled it.

Re: Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

#55

I was wondering the same thing and suspected it was some safety feature (better for a plane to smack into said wall instead of crash into some populated area, etc) I had no idea he had to make the approach in the opposite direction.

This: > no idea he had to make the approach in the opposite direction. So the wall is actually at the beginning of the runway. That wall was never never meant to be at the end of a landing but at the start of landing. I don't understand why this isn't made clear. Basically the runway was used against the design specifications.

Even if the runway was only used from one direction (not true), it would be dumb to build a big concrete structure near its beginning. It's not unheard of for planes to come in too low and touch down before start of the runway due to pilot error (or even double engine failure on rare occasions).

Re: Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

#56
post #27
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already botched a gear down landing, which is almost never mentioned. They retracted the gear and did a teardrop go around from a headwind into a tailwind belly flop. Stinks of bad crew resource management and ATC which is why the ATC and airline for raided by SK officials.

What should ATC have done differently?

Possible comms failure. ATC are responsible for reporting surface wind. It may have lead to a bad decision by the pilots. Go around versus teardrop etc.

Re: Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

#57
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing beyond the embankment. Airports are generally made in the middle of nowhere. And no, they are not "skidding" into the surrounding city, he probably needed a few hundred meters at most.

Maybe not all completely aligned straight forward with the landing, but it looks like yes there are some inhabited zones over there surrounded by wooded parcels, well before the landscape change for some sea. https://maps.app.goo.gl/BN15aSQ1pW6vJkzb7

740m before hitting the next structure.

Re: Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

#58
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t disagree with that. It is a compounding issue but I am much more interested in what happened up to that point. Many many small things or one big thing went wrong for it to even get to that point.

But don't forget, that point you mention is the point where the people were killed.

There is a whole chain of causality. They were killed by multiple successive problems compounding.

See Swiss cheese model.

Re: Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

#59
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bad idea to have a concrete wall at the end of the runway but was it the end of the runway? As I understand, the pilot came in from the opposite direction, i.e. > The pilot then aborted the original landing and requested permission to land from the opposite direction.[1] So that wall was located at the beginning of the runway if the runway was used correctly. From the bottom image[2], it would appear the wall is lo…

> So that wall was located at the beginning of the runway if the runway was used correctly. Most runways are intended to be used in both directions depending on the wind. This one doesn't seem to be an exception?

Yep mea culpa, I now understand a little more about aviation!

Re: Why was there a wall near runway at S Korea plane crash airport?

#60
post #37

I was wondering what if they tried to turn whether by rudder or thrust differential would the outcome have been different/worse. Maybe you can't do much at that speed and so little room.

I'm a pilot. The airplane was sliding on the ground and the landing gear was not deployed. Too fast to stop but not fast enough to use the rudder for directional control. There was no realistic chance to change direction.

If there had been enough engine power to control direction on the ground, there might also have been enough power to remain airborne, but based on limited information, that wasn't so. Under the circumstances the pilots would have wanted to stay airborne to buy time for a more controlled descent, were that possible.

All these speculations are preliminary and may completely change once the black box information is released.

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