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Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

archaeologymag.com

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Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#51
post #40

> Typically, amulets from this era contained a blend of Christian, Jewish, and pagan elements. Interesting; does anyone have a link showing a typical amulet from that era, for comparison?

I found that interesting too, and curious about what it implies for how people thought about religion at the time

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#52

Fascinating from both a technological and theological/ecclesiological perspective. I'll be sure to pass this on to some of my faith-filled friends who now live south of the Alps but have roots in the same region. > inhumation burials — a practice uncommon in other Roman cemeteries in Frankfurt To save others looking it up: "inhumation burial" seems to be a technical term in the field for what we simply call "burial",…

My wife is Messianic Jewish, where the primary intent is to restore Jewish traditions and beliefs while still believing in Jesus/Yeshua ("Jesus" being essentially a mispronunciation; the westernized version of the name would more accurately be "Joshua"). Personally my beliefs lie elsewhere, but it's still unfortunate that "denomination" is still such a tiny minority, given its desire to be a purer form of the religio…

Don’t confuse culture and gradual inculturation with purity of religion and validity of liturgy.

In the age of the Messiah the faithful are truly drawn “from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages”. If your wife would go to any (decent) Catholic or Orthodox church, and learns to "read" the building and the liturgy of Holy Mass, maybe she could recognize the contours of the “pure” or “more Jewish" religion she is yearning for. She could go to modern or more traditional Latin/Greek/Ukrainian/Syriac/Ethiopian/... rites and in the plurality of all those different cultures and temperaments recognize over and over again the exact same elements and basic plan, organically evolved yet meticulously preserved in a chain of unbroken sacramental obedience.

Entering the church building she’d gradually walk from the holy water near the entrance, through the “outer courtyard” for the lay people, to the sanctuary with the sacrificial altar, golden vessels and incense, elevated and separated by altar rail or curtain. Behind is the tabernacle, the Holy of Holies containing the Real Presence, indicated by a lit candle. And if she was to e.g. carefully analyse the words of the Eucharistic prayers in all these different rites and languages, she would find over and over again the same underlying structure, complete with the Haggadah.

But language and cultural differences aside, there must be fundamental differences as well. It is Christ Himself who took the prescribed liturgy of the ancient Passover meal and gave it its full and final meaning by substituting Himself, in the presence of the apostles, for the merely symbolic lamb. It is through Christ that the Trinity is fully revealed.

How then could e.g. the exact same holidays have been retained? For instance, why would you celebrate Shavuot, if with Pentecost the Holy Spirit directly descended on the Church? Another example: the Lord's Day is not "Sabbath on the wrong day". Sabbath laws do not apply to those under the New Covenant. Beyond the most excellent idea of dedicating an entire day to the Lord with plenty of obligatory prayer, rest, food and family/community time, the Christian Sunday is simply not the Sabbath. On Sunday we celebrate the Resurrection, which occurred on the first day of a new week (the supernatural "eighth day", beyond the natural fullness of the old week).

The priest in this age is also no longer a Levite. To properly offer this sacrifice, he is now sacramentally ordained by proper religious authorities “in the Order of Melchizedek”, reminiscent of the royal priesthood of David and the priesthood of Adam and the firstborns. And where the old liturgy was a sign of divine grace, the liturgy of our age is an effective cause of divine grace. If the priest obeys the liturgy that has been prescribed for his own rite and his own day, no amount of personal corruption can take away the sanctity of his work. This also means that there is no fundamental need for wars in the Holy Land or for "conquering" the Temple Mount by force. The Temple is already being built. Every time the faithful, after having been sacramentally cleansed of mortal sin through baptism or confession, participate in the Lord’s sacrifice by eating the body and drinking the blood of the Lamb, they themselves will inevitably become more and more the dwelling place of the Lord within the material creation.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#53
post #4

I'll never be able to read about us digitally unrolling fragile scrolls without it seemingly like otherworldly sci-fi technology. The translated blessing text itself seems almost modern. Funny to see how little we've changed in some ways.

There's very similar, but perhaps much more challenging project for digitally unrolling the Herculaneum papyri[1], which is set up as an open machine learning competition[2].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herculaneum_papyri

[2]: https://scrollprize.org/

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#54

Fascinating from both a technological and theological/ecclesiological perspective. I'll be sure to pass this on to some of my faith-filled friends who now live south of the Alps but have roots in the same region. > inhumation burials — a practice uncommon in other Roman cemeteries in Frankfurt To save others looking it up: "inhumation burial" seems to be a technical term in the field for what we simply call "burial",…

Some of the latin text is on the Wikipedia page [1]. Hopefully it will be updated to include more. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_silver_inscription

One of the references on the wikipedia page seems to have a full transcription (along with German translation):

https://archaeologisches-museum-frankfurt.de/index.php/de/?v...

I personally cannot make heads or tails of the script used in the various images, but it seems about right.

(Note that V and U are generally used interchangeably in Latin, since they were the same character. Same with I / J.)

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#55

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

You might enjoy Let's Talk Religion[0] and ReligionForBreakfast[1]. Both have variety of topics not solely focused on Christianity.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/@LetsTalkReligion

[1] https://www.youtube.com/@ReligionForBreakfast

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#56

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

I think the more interesting developments occurred after the fall of the western Roman empire. The eastern empire (Constantinople) had frequent arguments and disputes with the west over nearly everything, including Christianity. The eastern Orthodox church refers to itself as the "Catholic Church" in internal documents. After the west fell in 476, they continued to present themselves as "the" Catholic church, which was changed forever in 1200 when the largest Christian city in the world (Constantinople) was destroyed. The destruction took two years, and most of the writings, art and treasure of the richest city in the world was either destroyed, stolen, or lost.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a participant in a number of somewhat "modern" Christian traditions, I think one factor is that we have changed quite a lot and then some strands of the faith have decided to go back into the past and seek what we lost from the early days. One example being certain rock'n'roll churches where people stick their hands up in the air while singing and praying: I heard one pastor defend this as being "this is…

Thing is, Christianity is (should be? idk) based on the teachings of Jesus which separated from Judaism; on prayer and worship, the New Testament has teachings like: > Matthew 6:5-14 > 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go in…

While your reference talks about prayer which is distinct from worship, I think that the instructions around prayer and worship are related. However, I dont think the message is to be reserved, but instead be honest. I understand this verse to mean don't be fake, God knows your heart. Be real. Here are a few examples that reinforce why I think this.

When talking to the Samaritan woman at the well Jesus talks about worship being true and of the spirit.

John 4:23-24 NIV

[23] Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. [24] God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.

A reminder to forgive and seek forgiveness from those you have wronged (as reinforced in Matthew 6:14-15, Leviticus 19:18, Proverbs 17:9 ) before asking for forgiveness and before worshipping God:

Matthew 5:23-24 NIV

[23] “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, [24] leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

Showing that fake worship means little:

Matthew 15 8:9 (NIV) quoting Isaiah 29:13

[8] “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. [9] They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ ”

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What denominations do that? I'm familiar with Hebrew Roots, but doesn't seem to be what you're describing.

Presumably that's a reference to the GP describing "Messianic Jewish". (or rather, Messianic Judaism) > It considers itself to be a form of Judaism but is generally considered to be a sect of Christianity,[2][3] including by all major groups within mainstream Judaism, since Jews consider belief in Jesus as the Messiah and divine in the form of God the Son (and the doctrine of the Trinity in general) to be among the m…

So are they claiming that Messianic Jews are not actually Jews? Because they implied that people were falsely taking the title Jew if I understood them correctly. That would be the first time I've ever heard that particular assertion.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it Yesu, the diminutive, so Josh? "Josh is the name above all names", sounds kind of odd though.

Only because of your own cultural background / upbringing where Josh was a pretty normal and non-reverent name, like how people like me one day realise there's a whole culture of people out there where Jesus is still a common and popular first name, instead of something reserved for a religious figure.

I live in one of those cultures and have several coworkers named Jesus. But some names have different associations. It is like "Todd, The Necromancer!" Vs "Evelyn the sorceress". Jesus is a serious and competent embedded c++ programmer. Josh is a goofy guy in accounting.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#60
post #56

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

I think the more interesting developments occurred after the fall of the western Roman empire. The eastern empire (Constantinople) had frequent arguments and disputes with the west over nearly everything, including Christianity. The eastern Orthodox church refers to itself as the "Catholic Church" in internal documents. After the west fell in 476, they continued to present themselves as "the" Catholic church, which w…

In fact the very word catholic derives from the Greek words kata and holos
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