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Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

techcommunity.microsoft.com

51–60 of 148 posts

Re: Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

#51
post #47
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appreciate your rapid analysis of new models, Simon. Have any models you've tested performed well on the pelican SVG task?

gemini-exp-1206 is my new favorite: https://simonwillison.net/2024/Dec/6/gemini-exp-1206/ Claude 3.5 Sonnet is in second place: https://github.com/simonw/pelican-bicycle?tab=readme-ov-file...

The Gemini result is quite impressive, thanks for sharing these!

Re: Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

#52
post #34
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really glad that I see someone else doing something similar. I had the epiphany a while ago that if LLMs can interpret textual instructions to draw a picture and output the design in another textual format that this a strong indicator that they're more than just stochastic parrots. My personal test has been "A horse eating apples next to a tree" but the deliberate absurdity of your example is a much more useful t…

I've seen people using "draw a unicorn using tikz" https://adamkdean.co.uk/posts/gpt-unicorn-a-daily-exploratio...

That came, IIRC, from one of the OpenAI or Microsoft people (Sebastian Bubeck); it was recounted in an NPR podcast "Greetings from Earth"

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/803/transcript

Re: Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

#53
post #9

The most interesting thing about this is the way it was trained using synthetic data, which is described in quite a bit of detail in the technical report: https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.08905 Microsoft haven't officially released the weights yet but there are unofficial GGUFs up on Hugging Face already. I tried this one: https://huggingface.co/matteogeniaccio/phi-4/tree/main I got it working with my LLM tool like this: l…

The SVG created for the first prompt is valid but is a garbage image.

Amazon Nova models:

https://gist.github.com/uschen/38fc65fa7e43f5765a584c6cd24e1...

Re: Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

#54
post #22
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare performance on various Macs here as it gets updated: https://github.com/ggerganov/llama.cpp/discussions/4167 OMM, Llama 3.3 70B runs at ~7 text generation tokens per second on Macbook Pro Max 128GB, while generating GPT-4 feeling text with more in depth responses and fewer bullets. Llama 3.3 70B also doesn't fight the system prompt, it leans in. Consider e.g. LM Studio (0.3.5 or newer) for a Metal (MLX) cente…

What if you have a Macbook Air with 16GB (the bechmarks dont seem to show memory).

8B models with larger contexts, or even 9-14B parameter models quantized.

Qwen2.5 Coder 14B at a 4 bit quantization could run but you will need to be diligent about what else you have in memory at the same time.

Re: Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

#55

Where have I been? What is a “small” language model? Wikipedia just talks about LLMs. Is this a sort of spectrum? Are there medium language models? Or is it a more nuanced classifier?

It's a marketing term for the idea that quality over quantity in training data will lead to smaller models that work as well as larger models.

Re: Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

#56
post #19
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call 64GB MacBook Pro "regular consumer hardware".

Yeah, a computer which starts at $3900 is really stretching that classification. Plus if you're that serious about local LLMs then you'd probably want the even bigger RAM option, which adds another $800...

An optioned up minivan is also expensive but doesn’t cost as much as a firetruck. It’s expensive but still very much consumer hardware. A 3x4090 rig is more expensive and still consumer hardware. An H100 is not, you can buy like 7 of these optioned up MBP for a single H100.

Re: Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re already past that point! MacBooks can easily run models exceeding GPT-3.5, such as Llama 3.1 8B, Qwen 2.5 8B, or Gemma 2 9B. These models run at very comfortable speeds on Apple Silicon. And they are distinctly more capable and less prone to hallucination than GPT-3.5 was. Llama 3.3 70B and Qwen 2.5 72B are certainly comparable to GPT-4, and they will run on MacBook Pros with at least 64GB of RAM. However, I ha…

[dead]

> gpt-3.5-turbo is generally considered to be about 20B params. An 8B model does not exceed it.

The industry has moved on from the old Chinchilla scaling regime, and with it the conviction that LLM capability is mainly dictated by parameter count. OpenAI didn't disclose how much pretraining they did for 3.5-Turbo, but GPT 3 was trained on 300 billion tokens of text data. In contrast, Llama 3.1 was trained on 15 trillion tokens of data.

Objectively, Llama 3.1 8B and other small models have exceeded GPT-3.5-Turbo in benchmarks and human preference scores.

> Is a $8000 MBP regular consumer hardware?

As user `bloomingkales` notes down below, a $499 Mac Mini can run 8B parameter models. An $8,000 expenditure is not required.

Re: Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

#58
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call 64GB MacBook Pro "regular consumer hardware".

I have to disagree. I understand it's very expensive, but it's still a consumer product available to anyone with a credit card. The comparison is between something you can buy off the shelf like a powerful Mac, vs something powered by a Grace Hopper CPU from Nvidia, which would require both lots of money and a business relationship. Honestly, people pay $4k for nice TVs, refrigerators and even couches, and those are…

There's definitely been plenty sources of hardware capable of running LLMs out there for a while, Mac or not. A couple 4090s or P40s will run 3.1 70b. Or, since price isn't a limit, there are other easier & more powerful options like a [tinybox](https://tinygrad.org/#tinybox:~:text=won%27t%20be%20consider...).

Re: Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

#59
I really like the ~3B param version of phi-3. It wasn't very powerful and overused memory, but was surprisingly strong for such a small model.

I'm not sure how I can be impressed by a 14B Phi-4. That isn't really small any more, and I doubt it will be significantly better than llama 3 or Mistral at this point. Maybe that will be wrong, but I don't have high hopes.

Re: Phi-4: Microsoft's Newest Small Language Model Specializing in Complex Reasoning

#60
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I use the SVG pelican riding a bicycle thing as a benchmark: it's a deliberately absurd and extremely difficult task.

I'm really glad that I see someone else doing something similar. I had the epiphany a while ago that if LLMs can interpret textual instructions to draw a picture and output the design in another textual format that this a strong indicator that they're more than just stochastic parrots. My personal test has been "A horse eating apples next to a tree" but the deliberate absurdity of your example is a much more useful t…

Not sure if this counts. I recently went from description of a screenshot of graph to generate pandas code and plot from description. Conceptually it was accurate.

I don’t think it reflects any understanding. But to go from screenshot to conceptually accurate and working code was impressive.

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