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A new law in Sweden lets police seize unexplained luxury goods

economist.com

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Re: A new law in Sweden lets police seize unexplained luxury goods

#51

Post by foxglacier »

rurp wrote: post #11
miohtama wrote: post #5

"There is no consensus on the main cause of this surge in violence" If I am not misunderstood, the consensus in Sweden and globally is that the situation is caused by lax immigration policies and taking in too many immigrants who have not been able to integrate to the society.

Is that based on any evidence? I'm not familiar enough with the situation to know what the causes are, but I am aware of the long long history of scapegoating immigrants for any and all problems, so I'm inherintly a bit skeptical of that assumption.

Unfortunately, the opposite effect of being afraid to acknowledge crime by immigrants is also present. It looks like the government is unwilling to publish data that would resolve that question but here are some clues from Wikipedia [1]:

"58% of men convicted of rape and attempted rape over the past five years were immigrants born outside of the European Union"

"of 100 suspects of murder and attempted murder using firearms, 90 had one parent born abroad"

"Most of the increase is related to gang violence in vulnerable areas in Sweden which are areas with [...] a large immigrant population"

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden

Re: A new law in Sweden lets police seize unexplained luxury goods

#52

Post by Wytwwww »

cm2012 wrote: post #18
redeux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that the violence is caused by the immigrants directly or indirectly? I can’t say for Sweden but in the Texas immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than citizens[1]. There doesn’t seem to be a good source of data for the US as a whole. 1. https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-o...

The data suggests that immigrants to America have lower crime rates than Americans but European immigrants have higher crime rates than Europeans. This reflects the relative criminality of all four groups.

It's not that straightforward, though. US is much better at attracting highly educated and highly productive workers because of considerable higher wages and demand for labour than in Europe. While Europe is more of a fallback options for people who can't do better (I mean relatively of course as proportion of all immigrants).

Re: A new law in Sweden lets police seize unexplained luxury goods

#53

Post by twelvechairs »

dijit wrote: post #19
redeux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that the violence is caused by the immigrants directly or indirectly? I can’t say for Sweden but in the Texas immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than citizens[1]. There doesn’t seem to be a good source of data for the US as a whole. 1. https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-o...

It’s… difficult . I live in Sweden and the issues of lack of integration are eerily similar to those that affect the UK (where I was born and raised 80s-10s); pockets of extremely isolated cultures living in essentially parallel societies. First, migration is too inclusive and too exclusive of a term. For example it would exclude a second generation individual- and if we are suggesting that religion is an issue, thos…

Integration is a two-way street. I've known many people born in England, France, Germany who feel excluded from education opportunities, workplace opportunities, healthcare and general civil society because of their family origin, cultural background and pure skin colour. Probably also how they speak in the UK. This issue is much less in new world countries (US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand).

Let people into society and they will be part of it. Exclude them and they will form their own societies which you will have far greater issue with.

Edit - some examples - Several in the UK grew up in areas with poor schooling because of where they were born (places cheap enough for immigrants to move to). One who for similar reasons (poor local health service as a child) believes they have avoidable ongoing health issues. Black man im the UK cant flag a cab because they just wont stop for him despite being well dressed in a suit. Turkish-parent German feels pushed into 'workplace training school' (sorry I don't know the term) rather than university because of his background - had to do an extra 2 years of study "just because my parents are from Turkey". French woman of notth african ancestry felt she had to leave the country because she is constantly asked "where are you from" and they won't take "France" as an answer. Common thread is none of these people (all well spoken, well dressed, educated, well mannered) feel they had a chance at being part of mainstream society in their country of birth.

Re: A new law in Sweden lets police seize unexplained luxury goods

#55

Post by rosmax_1337 »

dijit wrote: post #50
rosmax_1337 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not too reductive to claim that immigration has lead to problems. It's quite plainly obvious at this point. The only reason why ones mind will struggle to grasp this is because you understand that there are severe consequences for openly criticizing immigration. Your mind will conjure "nuances" to allow you to avoid confronting the idea that something has to change, and allow you to remain socially, financia…

Your characterisation of my motivation is not correct. I’m considered racist because I am extremely critical of islam and think that it has no place in our increasingly secular societies. If you think I’m scared of talking about immigration, you are unfathomably mistaken. However you have to talk about each part properly, is migration causing significant social unrest and tension? Probably, I would argue yes. Are mig…

[Redacted]

Check the site guidelines.

Also, I disagree.

Re: A new law in Sweden lets police seize unexplained luxury goods

#56

Post by dijit »

rosmax_1337 wrote: post #55
dijit wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your characterisation of my motivation is not correct. I’m considered racist because I am extremely critical of islam and think that it has no place in our increasingly secular societies. If you think I’m scared of talking about immigration, you are unfathomably mistaken. However you have to talk about each part properly, is migration causing significant social unrest and tension? Probably, I would argue yes. Are mig…

[Redacted] Check the site guidelines. Also, I disagree.

To which guideline do you refer?

Re: A new law in Sweden lets police seize unexplained luxury goods

#57

Post by Wytwwww »

mac_iver wrote: post #8
miohtama wrote: post #5

"There is no consensus on the main cause of this surge in violence" If I am not misunderstood, the consensus in Sweden and globally is that the situation is caused by lax immigration policies and taking in too many immigrants who have not been able to integrate to the society.

Immigration policy is one factor, but it's too easy to blame everything on a single group in society. While Sweden's immigration debate gets lots of attention abroad, other problems like our corrupt private school system and cocaine use among the wealthy don't make as many headlines.

I'm sure that poor people would love to have some cocaine too if they could afford it.

Re: A new law in Sweden lets police seize unexplained luxury goods

#58

Post by Yeul »

dijit wrote: post #19
redeux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that the violence is caused by the immigrants directly or indirectly? I can’t say for Sweden but in the Texas immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than citizens[1]. There doesn’t seem to be a good source of data for the US as a whole. 1. https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-o...

It’s… difficult . I live in Sweden and the issues of lack of integration are eerily similar to those that affect the UK (where I was born and raised 80s-10s); pockets of extremely isolated cultures living in essentially parallel societies. First, migration is too inclusive and too exclusive of a term. For example it would exclude a second generation individual- and if we are suggesting that religion is an issue, thos…

It's too easy to blame this all on immigrants. Let's not pretend the native population actually wants to mix.

Re: A new law in Sweden lets police seize unexplained luxury goods

#60

Post by foxglacier »

rurp wrote: post #7

I'm not a fan of this law and expect it will end up being abused as much as civil forfeiture in the US. That said, it is interesting to see a stop and frisk law that actually targets wealthy people for once.

It targets poor people with expensive items. Wealthy people can explain how they could afford them.
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