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Performance improvement plans are on the rise

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Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#51

Post by devjab »

deskr wrote: post #21
kareiva wrote: post #5

There is nothing to hate here. I have given numerous PIP's as a manager and only actually fired once. The purpose of a PIP is to improve, not to fire a person.

How on earth can you be a good manager and not realize that saying "your performance is shit, we're going to fire you unless you take this course and we deem you've passed" is totally and utterly soul destroying to a person?

I think it’s just corporate culture in some places. I’ve done a stint in management and I’ve had the “fun” of dealing with all these performance measurements. I personally think they are rather useless in any sort of office work where your employees have a high degree of independence and complex tasks. I also think they come with a huge risk of creating a working culture where employees game the system. If you clock time on the hour then you can be sure nobody is going to help each other, because how do you clock that half hour? If you sell software by ridiculously short estimates and reward your employees for meeting them, then how happy are your clients with all the post-release support they’ll have to pay for? If you have one employee who’s build internal tools that empower everyone else, but haven’t delivered on X, Y, Z and you’re personally getting judged on those metrics then how do you keep up over all productivity when you’re forced to let them go.

There are a million examples of why they are bad, and I can’t really think of any in which they are useful on their own. Which becomes the issue when decision makers advance in ranks and “I don’t dare make decisions without covering my ass” managers slip in. Or when HR gets too much political power and push their tools as the law. Often organisations simply grow into poor cultures because the systemic value of measurements is shit compared to individual management. This is of course helped along by bad managers, who when given too much freedom create an organisational culture which is far worse than the meritocracy of data driven management.

I think it’s a little rough to judge someone who may have grown up in these cultures as a bad manager from a couple of lines of text.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#52

Post by mrandish »

delecti wrote: post #29

I got put on a PIP at Amazon, and even at the time I thought it was a reasonable criticism. I then worked hard, graduated out of the PIP, and stayed there a few more years. (I also opted-in to a second PIP (with my manager's knowledge and assistance) when I was leaving so I could get severance, but I don't really count that) One of my current mentees got put on a PIP a couple years ago, and she likewise has significa…

> So while PIPs might be started with the expectation that most employees won't improve, I think they're also started with the hope that they will.

I've seen it both ways and I think it comes down to the quality of the company and the manager - which, of course, varies widely. A good manager doesn't need PIPs because they're always communicating clearly and consistently to their reports about how they're doing. Ultimately, PIPs exist due to concerns about legal claims for wrongful dismissal which can be hard to defend if there's no clear paper trail of documentation.

As expected, a management process mandated by HR and legal concerns instead of just modeling on what great natural managers do is going to be hit or miss and sometimes go horribly awry.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#53

Post by chrisdhoover »

InDubioProRubio wrote: post #35
zug_zug wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't PIP a lower performing staff unless they're completely useless or toxic Maybe this is part of the problem -- that it's called one thing (a plan to improve performance) but is used as another (legalese once you've already given up hope). But I've never quite understood why. I imagine if I was a manager people would know if they are doing 20% as much as the best team member and would either be off the team…

The problem is what pip percentages say about management. Either HR hires and management approves 20 % duds - or your company is a rockstar shredder machine. Neither is a pleasant truth.

I think .20 is an underestimate. Under performers are likely in the .25 to .35 percent range. It is hard to find the right people and so there is an acceptance of good enough. The PIPs start with the most egregious or if cash flow is tight. An owner I worked for called it trimming the dead wood. From the business side it is best to get rid of some people. Its best for the remaining people too.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#54

Post by chrisdhoover »

riku_iki wrote: post #32
zug_zug wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't PIP a lower performing staff unless they're completely useless or toxic Maybe this is part of the problem -- that it's called one thing (a plan to improve performance) but is used as another (legalese once you've already given up hope). But I've never quite understood why. I imagine if I was a manager people would know if they are doing 20% as much as the best team member and would either be off the team…

> but is used as another (legalese once you've already given up hope). because "completely useless or toxic"(from prev comment) is manager's subjective assessment, and company wants to have stronger metric for firing people.

Most of life is subjective. Objectivity is very difficult. You are dealing with people who are mostly wacky. I suppose a weighted decision calculation could be used. How do you measure grumpy gus, chatty cathy, or mean marvin? How do handle the unsober?

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#56

Post by riku_iki »

chrisdhoover wrote: post #54
riku_iki wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but is used as another (legalese once you've already given up hope). because "completely useless or toxic"(from prev comment) is manager's subjective assessment, and company wants to have stronger metric for firing people.

Most of life is subjective. Objectivity is very difficult. You are dealing with people who are mostly wacky. I suppose a weighted decision calculation could be used. How do you measure grumpy gus, chatty cathy, or mean marvin? How do handle the unsober?

You can set robust PIP structure:

* clear deliveries which are evaluated by not manager

* collect peers feedback/ratings not visible to manager

This structure can give much stronger metric compared to personal manager feedback.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#57

Post by SpaceNoodled »

autobodie wrote: post #41
surgical_fire wrote: post #6

Nothing really bad about a PIP. You get to coast for months while you do interviews prior to being fired. Never been PIP'd myself, but I would prefer it than being fired without warning.

I would drastically prefer a lack of warning over a lack of reason, and I cannot help but interpret any other position as disingenuous.

A lack of warning can leave you in the lurch financially and career-wise. Getting the heads+up that it's time to find a new job let's you keep banking paychecks while you make a seamless transition to a new opportunity.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#58

Post by neofrommatrix »

deskr wrote: post #21
kareiva wrote: post #5

There is nothing to hate here. I have given numerous PIP's as a manager and only actually fired once. The purpose of a PIP is to improve, not to fire a person.

How on earth can you be a good manager and not realize that saying "your performance is shit, we're going to fire you unless you take this course and we deem you've passed" is totally and utterly soul destroying to a person?

Maybe they like the power, and this makes them feel powerful. Signs of a good manager, of course. /s

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#59

Post by pkaye »

amazingamazing wrote: post #9

With at-will employment is a pip necessary? What happens if you fire someone who is performing?

I've seen a few workers take the employer to court and the company usually settles as it doesn't want the reputational damage and court costs so they just pay up. People just assume the worst of the employers when these court cases become public if even it is later dismissed.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#60

Post by chrisdhoover »

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #19
JKCalhoun wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in management so I can't argue with you on that. But it seems like at the time the PIP is summoned, the person has somehow made to fireable-grounds.

I think the PIP is hated because it ruins the illusion of camaraderie, like an ultimatum in marriage. But really, unlike a marriage you shouldn't have that illusion in the first place, you were always a replaceable cog whose only value is what service you can do for your boss. If you always had that perspective then the PIP can be seen as a helpful encouragement to improve rather than a precursor to an actual firing.

One should realize life is temporary. You probably will leave very little legacy. You should aspire to have a large attendance at a remembrance. My father’s funeral filled the church. An in-law’s had less than 10 people. Best you can do is have and rear good children. If hard work helps that, it will be a net benefit.
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