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Who can claim Aristotle?

aeon.co

51–60 of 99 posts

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#51

His ideas provide a useful filter with words personal qualities, and the moderation of virtues in Nichomchean Ethics pretty much describes what it means when we say someone is 'honest.' it's a foundational read, along with the stoics. the provocative aspect of Aristotle today is that for people who see themselves as not on the level of citizens and who reject being compared by the virtues he (and later, aquinas) arti…

Ask HN: What's a favored translation these days?

This fall, I read a (fairly new) translation of The Eudemian Ethics by Anthony Kenny, in the Oxford World Classics series. It is handy (fits in a coat pocket, depending on your coat), with a useful introduction and notes.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>must necessarily be of average or below average intelligence Literally yes. A mind too dense to see he was drafting his arguments in support of whatever happened to be personally convenient. Considering he had to pen this screed in the first place, we can tell his view wasn't the exclusive one.

For the sake of recognizing a hill I too would be proud to die on, and so you know there are others who feel the same: I agree with you. I like to think the negative feedback you are receiving is due to the ambiguity, and so, the multitude of definitions for “intelligence” that each of us has. I know I have met people who others have touted as “intelligent” that I thought were too deplorable to be given such an accol…

There are a few reasons why I believe it's important to separate intelligence from moral goodness

The first and most basic is because they are different things, and for the sake of clarity different things should have different words to refer to them.

The second is because it allows us to have intelligent conversations about people who are intelligent but morally bad, or who are unintelligent but morally good. The person with an IQ barely above that of the strict definition of mentally retarded (or below, but questions of agency and responsibly arise so we won't use them in our example) who recognizes the humanity in every person and volunteers at the soup kitchen every chance he gets is morally good for doing so. The 180IQ engineer who manages the highly complex train schedule to keep the extermination camps running at capacity is morally bad for doing so.

The third is because it allows individuals to recognize that blind respect of intelligence which is unguided by morals or wisdom is a fool's errand.

The fourth is because is prevents the moralizing of language from hampering the clarity of language

The fifth is because the conflation of intelligence and morality provides an easy pathway to morally wrong positions. If the messaging is that "evil people are dumb!" and an impressionable individual encounters an intelligent person making a persuasive argument for something which is morally wrong, you've robbed them of a framework with which to engage and combat this person's ideas.

The sixth and final reason is that modification of language in this way hampers our ability to consider the world independent of our societal preconceived notions. I found the previous comments in this chain ironic because the individual who was calling a great (highly intelligent) philosopher a dunce for being unable to see beyond his cultural ethical norms was doing so from a position which is deeply entrenched in his current cultural and ethical norms, i.e. the inherent evils of slavery, the requirement of strict moral purity, the compulsion to attack every perceived positive characteristic of someone who is morally bad in order to devalue them and their intellectual contributions, and the perception of the world as a pitched battle between good and evil wherein righteous indignation should be one's perpetual state.

Now of course I agree with this commentator's ethical preconceptions related to slavery, but that's secondary to the importance of the things I listed above in how I approach Aristotle. I mean no disrespect and I hope this has been helpful in understanding my perspective.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>must necessarily be of average or below average intelligence Literally yes. A mind too dense to see he was drafting his arguments in support of whatever happened to be personally convenient. Considering he had to pen this screed in the first place, we can tell his view wasn't the exclusive one.

Couple of points: - I think taking interest on a (full-recourse) loan is a form of fraud. Or rather, it is to fraud what robbery is to larceny. I also think it produces, in practice, ownership in a share of a person, such that it can be usefully compared with slavery. I think I can make good arguments in support of this. But I don't think people who argue otherwise are dumb, or arguing from self-interest; I just thin…

>such that it can be usefully compared with slavery.

If you think interest on a loan is even in the same world as selling a human being to the highest bidder from an auction block, then we view the world so differently that I don't imagine efficient communication is possible.

>widely acknowledge as one of the greatest minds in history.

I mean, he's simply not.

>anti-slavery arguments from that period you're aware of

Well Zeno [0] for one, and Alcidamas [1].

And I'll say again, the fact he had to pen this screed in the first place shows that his view wasn't the exclusive one. In fact it shows how middling his intellect actually was that he was unable to see past his own time and place, despite the fact that others could.

>all anti-slavery arguments use Aristotelian concepts

This is more like Aristotle's fanboys trying to shoehorn other people's natural insights into his worldview.

[0] https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JbscAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Zeno+a...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcidamas

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>must necessarily be of average or below average intelligence Literally yes. A mind too dense to see he was drafting his arguments in support of whatever happened to be personally convenient. Considering he had to pen this screed in the first place, we can tell his view wasn't the exclusive one.

Couple of points: - I think taking interest on a (full-recourse) loan is a form of fraud. Or rather, it is to fraud what robbery is to larceny. I also think it produces, in practice, ownership in a share of a person, such that it can be usefully compared with slavery. I think I can make good arguments in support of this. But I don't think people who argue otherwise are dumb, or arguing from self-interest; I just thin…

> - Please let me know of any anti-slavery arguments from that period you're aware of.

Just from a point of common sense logic I would have to assume the vast majority of the slaves' arguments on the subject.

Let me just pull up all of the surviving primary sources written by the slaves of the that period... Oh, right.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#55

I think Aristotle had the greatest mind of any human who ever lived. The older I get the more I realize that there are a thousand true and intelligent things you can say about any topic. Magazines, journals, and libraries are full to the brim of intelligent people writing intelligent things. But an extremely minuscule portion of that huge mass is made of writing that gets right to the heart of the matter. And Aristot…

Great mind? I don't think so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_slavery

By that metric, Jesus didn’t free the slaves, either, and he said slaves should obey their masters.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple of points: - I think taking interest on a (full-recourse) loan is a form of fraud. Or rather, it is to fraud what robbery is to larceny. I also think it produces, in practice, ownership in a share of a person, such that it can be usefully compared with slavery. I think I can make good arguments in support of this. But I don't think people who argue otherwise are dumb, or arguing from self-interest; I just thin…

> - Please let me know of any anti-slavery arguments from that period you're aware of. Just from a point of common sense logic I would have to assume the vast majority of the slaves' arguments on the subject. Let me just pull up all of the surviving primary sources written by the slaves of the that period... Oh, right.

What makes you so sure? Slavery was universal across the human race, or practically so, until well into the second millennium AD. Nobody seriously questioned it. A bit like interest-taking now, which is why I brought it up as an example. Borrowers may complain about their monthly payments, but they don't seriously imagine themselves the victims of injustice qua borrowers.

We imagine that "if I lived back then, I'd be against it", but we forget that the past is a foreign country. People thought and acted quite differently.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the sake of recognizing a hill I too would be proud to die on, and so you know there are others who feel the same: I agree with you. I like to think the negative feedback you are receiving is due to the ambiguity, and so, the multitude of definitions for “intelligence” that each of us has. I know I have met people who others have touted as “intelligent” that I thought were too deplorable to be given such an accol…

There are a few reasons why I believe it's important to separate intelligence from moral goodness The first and most basic is because they are different things, and for the sake of clarity different things should have different words to refer to them. The second is because it allows us to have intelligent conversations about people who are intelligent but morally bad, or who are unintelligent but morally good. The pe…

Great response.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple of points: - I think taking interest on a (full-recourse) loan is a form of fraud. Or rather, it is to fraud what robbery is to larceny. I also think it produces, in practice, ownership in a share of a person, such that it can be usefully compared with slavery. I think I can make good arguments in support of this. But I don't think people who argue otherwise are dumb, or arguing from self-interest; I just thin…

>such that it can be usefully compared with slavery. If you think interest on a loan is even in the same world as selling a human being to the highest bidder from an auction block, then we view the world so differently that I don't imagine efficient communication is possible. >widely acknowledge as one of the greatest minds in history. I mean, he's simply not. >anti-slavery arguments from that period you're aware of…

Whether I'm right, or am an absolute drooling nutcase, for thinking interest-taking (on a full-recourse loan) is immoral is beside the point.

The point is that it would be idiotic of me to think somebody defending the practice was stupid or immoral, when it is accepted almost everywhere and by everyone. Same is true for Aristotle and slavery. Calling him stupid or evil on this account is misguided. Every individual and every age has its intellectual and moral blindspots. See Boogie_Man's comment above, he covers the various problems with this approach more thoroughly than I have.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>such that it can be usefully compared with slavery. If you think interest on a loan is even in the same world as selling a human being to the highest bidder from an auction block, then we view the world so differently that I don't imagine efficient communication is possible. >widely acknowledge as one of the greatest minds in history. I mean, he's simply not. >anti-slavery arguments from that period you're aware of…

Whether I'm right, or am an absolute drooling nutcase, for thinking interest-taking (on a full-recourse loan) is immoral is beside the point. The point is that it would be idiotic of me to think somebody defending the practice was stupid or immoral, when it is accepted almost everywhere and by everyone. Same is true for Aristotle and slavery. Calling him stupid or evil on this account is misguided. Every individual a…

>Whether I'm right, or am an absolute drooling nutcase, for thinking interest-taking (on a full-recourse loan) is immoral is beside the point

No it most definitely is not. Could you just confirm the following statement is accurate:

It is your belief that interest taking on loans and legalized slavery are a difference of degree, not a difference in kind.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether I'm right, or am an absolute drooling nutcase, for thinking interest-taking (on a full-recourse loan) is immoral is beside the point. The point is that it would be idiotic of me to think somebody defending the practice was stupid or immoral, when it is accepted almost everywhere and by everyone. Same is true for Aristotle and slavery. Calling him stupid or evil on this account is misguided. Every individual a…

>Whether I'm right, or am an absolute drooling nutcase, for thinking interest-taking (on a full-recourse loan) is immoral is beside the point No it most definitely is not. Could you just confirm the following statement is accurate: It is your belief that interest taking on loans and legalized slavery are a difference of degree, not a difference in kind.

> It is your belief that interest taking on loans and legalized slavery are a difference of degree, not a difference in kind.

No. They are comparable, and both moral evils, but are different species of action.

But suppose I said yes, then what? It would not affect the argument. Whether I'm right or wrong about interest-taking per se, I would be wrong to believe that people who defended it were wicked or stupid (rather than simply misguided) given its universality. Similarly, regardless of whether Aristotle was right or wrong about slavery per se, you are wrong to believe that Aristotle was wicked and stupid for defending it (rather than simply misguided) given its then-universality.

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