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Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

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Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#51

Post by vkazanov »

evoke4908 wrote: post #41
plopz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think server side statistical analysis can go a long way to detect stuff like that. Obviously its always a cat and mouse game between devs and cheaters, and there are always workarounds, but theres a lot more the devs could be doing without relying on invasive client side detection.

I think the problem is that that kind of work requires a good deal of developer resources for a long time. What company wants to pay upkeep on a shipped product? You could save hundreds of thousands of dollars a year by shipping a rootkit to players and not worrying about server security.

Any company that makes big money on long-living multiplayer games?

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#52

Post by sadeshmukh »

jolmg wrote: post #39

I've never seen a game request root privileges, and I would think installation of anything kernel-level would need that. None of the steam binaries have setuid nor capabilities set. Have anyone seen games that request root privileges? EDIT: I'm gathering from this[1] and the fact that no wine-related package have kernel modules included and no executable from any of those packages have setuid nor capabilities set, th…

Everything says "wants to make changes to your device". I accidentally installed EAC that way.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#53

Post by darknavi »

arp242 wrote: post #16
lousken wrote: post #4

Good, the sooner devs realize they need to do server side properly, the better

It's impossible to prevent cheating from the server-side only. Something like an aimbot can operate purely on information you need to have as a client (to render the other players on the screen), and still be a huge advantage because it can respond faster than any human can.

Client Server architecture can still take you a long way. Culling what you send to the client and relying less on client-side "hiding" of state, server authoritative actions with client-side prediction, etc.

At the end of the day someone could be using hardware "cheats" but you can get down to a pretty good spot to stop or disincentivize cheaters without running rootkits on their devices.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#54

Post by phito »

bravetraveler wrote: post #37
jsheard wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I wanted to deploy a trojan horse then the last place I would try to hide it is in an anti-cheat driver that will without any doubt be exhaustively analysed by people attempting to bypass it.

Gamers are great targets. They'll disable security for higher polling rates. Not discerning, gladly walk to the slaughterhouse.

There's a ton of gamers that like to figure out how the game itself works. There's a ton of them trying to figure out how anti cheats work, sometimes to cheat, but more often because they're curious, resourceful teenagers taking it as a challenge.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#55

Post by OtomotO »

RobotToaster wrote: post #6
throwaway48476 wrote: post #2

After the crowdstrike disaster 3rd party kernel drivers need to be shunned for non critical applications. Games publishers have been bad actors in this space for a long time now. The genshin impact anticheat was used in a malware campaign. Rockstar was very misleading trying to imply their kernel driver not being compatible with the steam deck was valves fault.

Lets call them what they really are, rootkits.

That's exactly what I tell my friends.

I can't play certain games, because they don't run on Linux and even if they did, I am not gonna install a rootkit to run them.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#56

Post by phito »

evoke4908 wrote: post #41
plopz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think server side statistical analysis can go a long way to detect stuff like that. Obviously its always a cat and mouse game between devs and cheaters, and there are always workarounds, but theres a lot more the devs could be doing without relying on invasive client side detection.

I think the problem is that that kind of work requires a good deal of developer resources for a long time. What company wants to pay upkeep on a shipped product? You could save hundreds of thousands of dollars a year by shipping a rootkit to players and not worrying about server security.

It would not only take a lot of developer resources, but also computing power.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#57

Post by [deleted] »

kulahan wrote: post #19
RobotToaster wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets call them what they really are, rootkits.

Can't wait to find out what China hid in Riot's Vanguard rootkit for all their games. It's 100% a conspiracy theory, but nobody can convince me it's perfectly clean, or if it is, that there isn't an easy way to add some power to it quietly.

[deleted]

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#58

Post by gorjusborg »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #46
kulahan wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't wait to find out what China hid in Riot's Vanguard rootkit for all their games. It's 100% a conspiracy theory, but nobody can convince me it's perfectly clean, or if it is, that there isn't an easy way to add some power to it quietly.

China's national security assistance law came up in the TikTok hearings. There's no reason to believe that the CCP doesn't have the legal authority to compel Riot to push an update with a backdoor to a few select high value targets.

Companies rule the United States. Companies that do business in China are ruled by China. Therefore, the United States is ruled by China.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#59

Post by umvi »

Thaxll wrote: post #47
throwaway48476 wrote: post #2

After the crowdstrike disaster 3rd party kernel drivers need to be shunned for non critical applications. Games publishers have been bad actors in this space for a long time now. The genshin impact anticheat was used in a malware campaign. Rockstar was very misleading trying to imply their kernel driver not being compatible with the steam deck was valves fault.

Cheats and bots are ruining online games though.

Yeah life sucks when everything and everyone has to be untrusted (applies not just video games).

The solution is to build trusted spaces again IMO.

For video games assume that each user is trusted by default. As soon as they violate that trust by cheating, they are banned permanently for that copy of the game. If they want to be trusted again they have to buy another copy of the game to get another license. Make it hard to become a member of a trusted community and easy to be kicked out of a trusted community for violating trust. This would eliminate the vast majority of cheating and bots because most gamers are kids and having to buy a fresh copy will hit hard. If they abuse it enough, make them jump through more hoops like ip bans and computer fingerprint bans.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#60

Post by kibwen »

OtomotO wrote: post #55
RobotToaster wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets call them what they really are, rootkits.

That's exactly what I tell my friends. I can't play certain games, because they don't run on Linux and even if they did, I am not gonna install a rootkit to run them.

Getting a Steam Deck has done wonders for my piece of mind. I don't need to worry if whatever games I'm installing are malicious, because the machine is airgapped from anything critical.
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