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Jaywalking legalized in New York City

theguardian.com

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Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#51

Post by freefaler »

simgt wrote: post #44
freefaler wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the street is empty then it's easy to recognize that. However what will the rule be if there is a car, but far away, or not that far away. It's a slippery slope with a 2 ton SUV driving at 50mph and a person "interpreting" that it's not disrupting it. Ambiguity will be the problem and it is solved by the rule of "not crossing at all". The lesser of 2 evils.

> It's a slippery slope with a 2 ton SUV driving at 50mph and a person "interpreting" that it's not disrupting it. Maybe the problem here is that a 2 ton SUV shouldn't be driven at 50mph when pedestrians are anywhere near. I always find it interesting how the ones advocating for the absolute freedom of owning and driving an SUV everywhere, to carry 70kg of human flesh, are usually also the ones asking for the restric…

The problem is not how big is the car or any other subject. The problem with any rule that is badly formulated is the ambiguity it creates. In this instance this bad definition can lead to very bad consequences.

Bad rules = ambiguous rules and need for interpretation and that leads to many bad consequences.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#52

Post by tsimionescu »

94b45eb4 wrote: post #25

So if you are waiting at an intersection pedestrian crossings and getting impatient you can just move over a bit and cross anyway?

Basically it means that pedestrians are allowed to cross the road anywhere, anytime, but they still have to yield to car traffic except at pedestrian crossings without a semaphore or at the Walk signal. It's a very common-sense law.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#53

Post by tincholio »

IshKebab wrote: post #24
vasco wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaywalking is any crossing in a wrong / illegal way, not about intersections specifically. Mostly it's about not using crosswalks, so I don't see how it collides with what Europe does. In Europe you also have differences with some countries where crosswalk lights are as a mandate from God and nobody will cross even at 2am deserted road. And then you have countries where the crosswalk lights are mere decorations.

Which countries obey crossing lights as strictly as you describe? I've been to lots of European countries and none were like that. Not in the way that the US is.

Finland, for one

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#54

Post by nobody9999 »

hnbad wrote: post #43
94b45eb4 wrote: post #25

So if you are waiting at an intersection pedestrian crossings and getting impatient you can just move over a bit and cross anyway?

Did you read the article? Pedestrians can always cross but they then don't have the right of way and have to yield to traffic. Basically everyone can keep doing what they've been doing all along but police can no longer arrest them for it through selective enforcement.

>Did you read the article? Pedestrians can always cross but they then don't have the right of way and have to yield to traffic. Basically everyone can keep doing what they've been doing all along but police can no longer arrest them for it through selective enforcement.

As a lifelong New Yorker, I can tell you that arrest is never an option for any violation of the city's administrative code. Rather it's a fine.

And as you alluded to, black and brown people were the vast majority of those fined under the jaywalking regulation.

As a cis white guy, I didn't even know that jaywalking was 'illegal' in NYC until folks started talking about 'legalizing' it a few years ago.

As I mentioned, I've lived here pretty much all my life and have 'jaywalked' in front of police hundreds if not thousands of times and none have ever even looked at me funny.

So yes, this is a very good thing. Just one very, very small step on the road to 'a more perfect union', IMHO.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#55

Post by eertami »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #38
carom wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It would kill the utility of cars though, you could never drive faster than maybe 30 miles per hour That sounds lovely. I would live in that city.

That city is London - well, to an extent. The majority of London roads have a 20mph limit.

A lot of European cities are also 30kmph in residential/central areas, with even 20kmph limits in pedestrianised areas.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#56

Post by BlackFly »

0xEF wrote: post #39
echoangle wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would kill the utility of cars though, you could never drive faster than maybe 30 miles per hour or you would constantly run people over. Pedestrians are more nimble than cars, so it kind of makes sense that cars have the right of way. As far as I know, large container ships have right of way over small vessels for the same reason.

Have you ever driven through a downtown urban area? You can't go more than 30mph anyway, even if you wanted to. There is simply too much connections, turns, etc. And yet, I still disagree that pedestrians should be able to just enter the road willy-nilly. Crosswalks are there for safety because it sets the same expectations for everyone using the road, drivers included, thus creating order and flow that is generally…

> I am not compelled to look to my right as I am timing my turn because I am not expecting traffic to be there since a right turn has you crossing zero lanes of traffic and merging with on-coning that would be on your left.

Except you may have just passed a cyclist without leaving enough time to turn because you barely registered their presence and are now going to cut them off. Or you stopped at an intersection and they approached on the right because that is where they are supposed to stay by law and you didn't check your blind spot before you started. The first situation can happen with cars where you pass a slow moving car just before an intersection and immediately slow down to turn right, merging back into the lane and cutting off the car. If you have driven any amount of time at all, I am sure you have seen that annoying scenario. The second situation doesn't typically happen with cars because of how right turn lanes are constructed but can (unlawfully) occur when someone (typically a tourist) was in the straight going lane but realized they wanted or needed to turn right.

Dedicated bicycle lanes are meant to make it clear that you are indeed crossing traffic when you turn right because bicycles as slow moving traffic are intended to stay in that area as an exceptional case.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#57

Post by pm3003 »

keiferski wrote: post #28
IshKebab wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which countries obey crossing lights as strictly as you describe? I've been to lots of European countries and none were like that. Not in the way that the US is.

Germany and Poland both do this.

In Poland I always respect the pedestrian lights. Contrary to France and even Germany, drivers expect you to respect them, and especially in Warsaw there is a very high tolerance on speeding on big wide arters. Cars crossing intersections at speeds of more than 90km/h (7.8 furlongs per minute for Americans) are usual in Warsaw.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#58

Post by tsimionescu »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #41
leptons wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most places, jaywalking typically means crossing outside of a crosswalk while being within a short distance of a crosswalk. It's more dangerous for pedestrians near crosswalks, cars are turning and have limited visibility, so using the crosswalk (when crossing is allowed, if there's a crossing indicator) is the rule. If you are a certain distance away from a crosswalk, you are allowed to cross the road but must yi…

I think "no jaywalking because safety" would make more sense if crosswalks were totally safe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in NY, can't traffic move over crosswalks even against traffic lights, in some circumstances? I always find that confusing-and frightening!

In certain parts of the USA, cars are allowed to turn right from the first lane even on a red light, unless there is some explicit sign prohibiting it in that intersection.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#59

Post by maccard »

BlackFly wrote: post #56
0xEF wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever driven through a downtown urban area? You can't go more than 30mph anyway, even if you wanted to. There is simply too much connections, turns, etc. And yet, I still disagree that pedestrians should be able to just enter the road willy-nilly. Crosswalks are there for safety because it sets the same expectations for everyone using the road, drivers included, thus creating order and flow that is generally…

> I am not compelled to look to my right as I am timing my turn because I am not expecting traffic to be there since a right turn has you crossing zero lanes of traffic and merging with on-coning that would be on your left. Except you may have just passed a cyclist without leaving enough time to turn because you barely registered their presence and are now going to cut them off. Or you stopped at an intersection and…

> Except you may have just passed a cyclist without leaving enough time to turn because you barely registered their presence and are now going to cut them off.

> and you didn't check your blind spot before you started.

No amount of legislation or changes in rules will protect from people who aren't paying attention. These changes don't have an impact immediately, but the only way to make them is to do them at one point or another. The people learning to drive in NY now will know that things are different, and in 10-15 years the behaviour will change.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#60

Post by Delphiza »

timomaxgalvin wrote: post #14
vasco wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaywalking is any crossing in a wrong / illegal way, not about intersections specifically. Mostly it's about not using crosswalks, so I don't see how it collides with what Europe does. In Europe you also have differences with some countries where crosswalk lights are as a mandate from God and nobody will cross even at 2am deserted road. And then you have countries where the crosswalk lights are mere decorations.

The distinction is about pedestrians being forced to use crossings. In the UK you can use them, but you can cross where you like if you want to.

Also in the UK we have pedestrian refuge islands. Not a crossing, as there is no pedestrian priority, but useful little bits of road furniture that reduces the likelihood of getting mown down by cars. As a side effect they also tend to slow down car traffic due to narrowing of the road. Americans may see them as official jaywalking points.

https://www.trafficchoices.co.uk/traffic-schemes/refuge-isla...

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