Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know lots of people working on AI. they are among the least bro-y group of people I have ever met. There is simply nothing similar to actual bro-y finance culture among AI research engineers. It is entirely a figment of the media and backreaction that we currently have to portray everyone we don’t like as a “bro” - truth be damned.
no - the cliques are different but linked at the hip. Add international finance, too.. India, China and others.
Training Language Models to Self-Correct via Reinforcement Learning
51–60 of 95 posts
Re: Training Language Models to Self-Correct via Reinforcement Learning
#52I hate that the AI pundits have succeeded in popularizing the notion of "hallucination", anthropomorphizing these balls of statistics into something that seems like it's actually in some sort of deep thought process akin to a person's mind. No, it's not "hallucinating". It's not lying, or making things up, or anything like that either. It's spitting out data according to what triggers the underlying weights. If this…
Sees space shuttle "pff, it's just a pile of engineering."
Re: Training Language Models to Self-Correct via Reinforcement Learning
#53Sure it’s sorting through garbage more elegantly but it’s still garbage at the end of the day.
I was hoping the RL-like approach replaced the transformers-like approach or something but that’s a pipe dream.
Re: Training Language Models to Self-Correct via Reinforcement Learning
#54I hate that the AI pundits have succeeded in popularizing the notion of "hallucination", anthropomorphizing these balls of statistics into something that seems like it's actually in some sort of deep thought process akin to a person's mind. No, it's not "hallucinating". It's not lying, or making things up, or anything like that either. It's spitting out data according to what triggers the underlying weights. If this…
Re: Training Language Models to Self-Correct via Reinforcement Learning
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
As long as AI-bros are pushing for making AI models seem like more than they are to pad their wallets, there'll be someone like me pointing out that, no, it's not "hallucinating", it's spitting bad data.
You're being pedantic. Your statement that "it's spitting bad data" is incorrect too, as it implies agency. Actually, nothing is happening but electrons flowing. The notion of an "it" that "spits" "data" which is "bad" is your own conceptual overlay.
Re: Training Language Models to Self-Correct via Reinforcement Learning
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the OP may be referring to this slide that Yann LeCun has presented on several occasions: https://youtu.be/MiqLoAZFRSE?si=tIQ_ya2tiMCymiAh&t=901 To quote from the slide: * Probability e that any produced token takes us outside the set of correct answers * Probability that answer of length n is correct * P(correct) = (1-e)^n * This diverges exponentially * It's not fixable (without a major redesign)
Wouldn't this apply to all prediction machines that make errors. Humans make bad predictions all the time but we still seem to manage to do some cool stuff here and there. part of an agents architecture will be for it to minimize e and then ground the prediction loop against a reality check. making LLMs bigger gets you a lower e with scale of data and compute but you will still need it to check against reality. test…
>> part of an agents architecture will be for it to minimize e and then ground the prediction loop against a reality check.
The problem is that web-scale LLMs can only realistically be trained to maximise the probability of the next token in a sequence, but not the factuality, correctness, truthfullness, etc of the entire sequence. That's because web-scale data is not annotated with such properties. So they can't do a "reality check" because they don't know what "reality" is, only what text looks like.
The paper above uses an "oracle" instead, meaning they have a labelled dataset of correct answers. They can only train their RL approach because they have this source of truth. This kind of approach just doesn't scale as well as predicting the next token. It's really a supervised learning approach hiding behind RL.
Re: Training Language Models to Self-Correct via Reinforcement Learning
#57Spoiler: You're never going to get rid of hallucinations in the autoregressive, next token prediction paradigm (aka LeCun's Law). The issue here is people trying to use language models as deterministic problem solvers, rather than for what they actually excel at (semi-creative text generation).
LeCuns argument is seriously flawed. It is not at all a rigorous one and you should not make such sweeping statements based on nothing.
Re: Training Language Models to Self-Correct via Reinforcement Learning
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is this similar to the effect that I have seen when you have two different LLMs talking to each other, they tend to descend into nonsense ? A single error in one of the LLM's output and that then pushes the other LLM out of distribution. I kind of oscillatory effect when the train of tokens move further and further out of the distribution of correct tokens.
> Is this similar to the effect that I have seen when you have two different LLMs talking to each other, they tend to descend into nonsense ? Is that really true? I'd expect that with high temperature values, but otherwise I don't see why this would happen, and I've experimented with pitting same models against each other and also different models against different models, but haven't come across that particular prob…
That the chain-of-thought diverges from accepted truth as an incorrect token pushes it into a line of thinking that is not true. The use of RL is there to train the LLM to implement strategies to bring it back from this. In effect, two LLMs would be the same and would slow diverge into nonsense. Maybe it is something that is not so much of a problem anymore.
Yann LeCun talks about how the correct way to fix this is to use an internal consistent model of the truth; then the chain-of-thought exists as a loop within that consistent model meaning it cannot diverge. The language is a decoded output of this internal model resolution. He speaks about this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N09C6oUQX5M
Anyway, that's my understanding. I'm no expert.
Re: Training Language Models to Self-Correct via Reinforcement Learning
#59LLMs have no direct recollection of the qualia of their own training. This is at least a major way that I self-correct myself: if I'm about to talk about something I know, I'll try and figure out how/why I know that thing and in so doing, try to gauge whether I actually know that thing, if I'm hallucinating, or if I actually heard it from a less than reliable source etc. I don't think LLMs can self-correct without re…
But even if it's embedded in a framework, say CS, the qualia fade in the background as time passes. E.g. like everybody in CS, I'm pretty much able to quote O() performance characteristics of a sizeable number of algorithms off the bat. If you ask me where I learned it, for that specific algorithm - that's long receded into the past.
When humans self-correct, the normal process isn't "gauging whether you know the thing" or the even more impressive feat of calling up if you heard it from a "less than reliable source". There's a fuzzy sense of "I don't fully understand it", and self-correction means re-verifying the info from a trusted source.
So, no, I don't think the qualia matter for recall as much as you think.
Re: Training Language Models to Self-Correct via Reinforcement Learning
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wouldn't this apply to all prediction machines that make errors. Humans make bad predictions all the time but we still seem to manage to do some cool stuff here and there. part of an agents architecture will be for it to minimize e and then ground the prediction loop against a reality check. making LLMs bigger gets you a lower e with scale of data and compute but you will still need it to check against reality. test…
The difference between LLMs and other kinds of predictive models, or humans, is that those kinds of systems do not produce their output one token at a time, but all in one go, so their error basically stays constant. LeCun's argument is that LLM error increases with every cycle of appending a token to the last cycle's output. That's very specific to LLMs (or, well, to LLM-based chatbots to be more precise). >> part o…
LeCun's argument has some decent points, eg, allocating compute per token based solely on location within the sequence (due to increasing cost of attention ops for later locations) is indeed silly. However, the points about AR being unavoidably flawed due to exponential divergence from the true manifold are wrong and lazy. They're not wrong because AR models don't diverge, they're wrong because this sort of divergence is also present in other models.