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The quest for a Wiki-less game

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Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#51

Post by yreg »

izacus wrote: post #28
fragmede wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Players who want the "pure" game experience can simply not look things up on the wiki. Because people don't have the self control not to do that and want to get spoonfed the answer, even if not cheating would be more satisfying for them.

"Given the choice, players will optimize all the fun out of their game." - this is a quote attributed to Sid Meier and it's very true. And reading Wikis is pretty much one of things that really fits this.

At the same time he probably didn't think about wikis in that regard since he included an in-depth Civilopedia in the Civilization games before wikis were a thing.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#52

Post by xnorswap »

an_ko wrote: post #45
drw85 wrote: post #38

I also think this signals a change in how games are played these days. There are many players that don't want to be challenged or explore, they want to complete tasks and get rewards. Some of them don't really care that much about the actual gameplay, as long as there is a quick way to complete sets of tasks and get their rewards. Some of my friends are like this, they blast through games without looking at anything…

Has that really changed recently? Different people have always enjoyed different things, and some don't like puzzles. That was as true a hundred years ago as now.

I don't know about "recently", but things have certainly changed.

Even when there was information available in the past, it wasn't always easy to access or understand, and more critically, the willingness and pace of shared knowledge has increased tremendously.

If we look back, admittedly through the lens of nostalgia, at games like WoW:BC, then strategies took weeks or even months to bed in and disseminate from the top guilds to the wider public. RPGs, even in the gamefaqs era, took weeks or months to feel "solved".

Whereas now games are released and are often "solved" in beta before their official release. Game knowledge is spread so much faster now.

Even when we had early youtube back then, and we had IRC and gamefaqs, the knowledge just wasn't spread as fast. It's hard to know if that's just the sheer numbers of people involved now, or a greater willingness to share that knowledge.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#53

Post by moduspol »

drw85 wrote: post #38

I also think this signals a change in how games are played these days. There are many players that don't want to be challenged or explore, they want to complete tasks and get rewards. Some of them don't really care that much about the actual gameplay, as long as there is a quick way to complete sets of tasks and get their rewards. Some of my friends are like this, they blast through games without looking at anything…

> I like exploring and discovering and figuring things out.

I understand this is very common, but for me: "discovering and figuring things out" in games often becomes: "guess what the game devs want me to do."

Oh, is there something on the other side of that hill? Meh, not really. What about at the top of that cliff? Oh I can only sort of climb it? Should I keep trying or am I just going to hit an invisible wall? Is this enemy way too tough for me with my current equipment, or do I just need to get better? Am I doing things in the wrong order and just making things way tougher?

Some games are better about it than others, but I already know I'm playing a game. I don't get much enjoyment from "finding" something that was put there for me to find. I like stories, characters, and world-building. I don't need a giant yellow HUD arrow, but there's nothing fun about wandering aimlessly in hopes of finding something mildly interesting. I already know there are N mildly interesting things on the map, each within a focus-tested ~30 second distance from each other. So for me at least, I'll take the map markers.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#54

Post by kruczek »

bilekas wrote: post #47

This is a funny one. I am reminded of Elite Dangerous and how such an amazing game, concept and game loop (mostly) is top tier and exactly what I was looking for. The only way to play it properly or in any way usefully is to use third party tools. For example, markets statistics to see live market information in game for trading, you have to use a user created website. Want to see what components will get your ship i…

That's an interesting example, because I never felt the need for 3rd party tools while playing Elite Dangerous. I did some upgrades to my ship, mainly based on what I found in store of stations I visited. I did a bit of mining and was able to sell it for some profit.

I'm sure I would be more efficient, if I'd use 3rd party tools, but it still didn't prevent me from actually playing and enjoying the game. I'd say it's much different to the "terraria problem" mentioned in the post.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#56

Post by techdmn »

The thing that strikes me about the question is the underlying desire to control the user. The creator wants people to figure things out rather than look them up. For a good game, make it the way you want. That's your choice. If someone solves the puzzles themselves, great! If they get stuck, or just want to blast through the game and use a wiki or guide, so what? That's their choice. As an author or creator you can choose how to make art. You do not get to control how people experience it. That would be creepy, though it doesn't seem to stop people from trying.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#57

Post by sfn42 »

moduspol wrote: post #53
drw85 wrote: post #38

I also think this signals a change in how games are played these days. There are many players that don't want to be challenged or explore, they want to complete tasks and get rewards. Some of them don't really care that much about the actual gameplay, as long as there is a quick way to complete sets of tasks and get their rewards. Some of my friends are like this, they blast through games without looking at anything…

> I like exploring and discovering and figuring things out. I understand this is very common, but for me: "discovering and figuring things out" in games often becomes: "guess what the game devs want me to do." Oh, is there something on the other side of that hill? Meh, not really. What about at the top of that cliff? Oh I can only sort of climb it? Should I keep trying or am I just going to hit an invisible wall? Is…

For me, this is mostly about what kind of information a player expects to find in a game.

For example in Overwatch 2, there are no numbers on abilities. It's just something like "fires a rocket at the enemy" - how much damage does the rocket do? How long is the cooldown? Can it crit if it hits an enemy in the head?

In other games there might be items or talents with tooltips like "increases your damage" - how much? Is it additive or multiplicative with other modifiers?

I like games where this kind of information is easily available. I won't look up how to complete a quest or something unless I'm completely stuck on it, but I will look up numbers so I can make informed decisions instead of just guessing what might be good.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#58

Post by AStonesThrow »

moduspol wrote: post #53
drw85 wrote: post #38

I also think this signals a change in how games are played these days. There are many players that don't want to be challenged or explore, they want to complete tasks and get rewards. Some of them don't really care that much about the actual gameplay, as long as there is a quick way to complete sets of tasks and get their rewards. Some of my friends are like this, they blast through games without looking at anything…

> I like exploring and discovering and figuring things out. I understand this is very common, but for me: "discovering and figuring things out" in games often becomes: "guess what the game devs want me to do." Oh, is there something on the other side of that hill? Meh, not really. What about at the top of that cliff? Oh I can only sort of climb it? Should I keep trying or am I just going to hit an invisible wall? Is…

Moon Logic Puzzles: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoonLogicPuzzle

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#59

Post by a96 »

phn wrote: post #48
Arisaka1 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a category of games whose depth goes so hard that they assume engagement outside of the application, and then there's Mega Man games who were built under the assumption that the player will enjoy trial and error, and to attempt to push through making the wrong stage choice by learning how to dodge boss mechanics. I firmly believe that the internet normalized metagaming as a side-effect (guides, talk to friend…

I think Elden Ring (and the souls genre in general) IS designed with the assumption players have access to the internet to search for stuff if they want . The game will still provide quite a challenge even if you know where you need to go and get weapons/items/etc. The bosses won't defeat themselves even if you know the overall strategy to use. I think of it as kind of a self-regulated difficulty system, if you want…

Elden Ring and Fallouts are IMO good examples of games that have done great in this environment. There are people wondering at the art and archaeology(!) and cultures and various descriptions and other lore bits scattered around the games while others are speedrunning and stat optimizing things. They're extracting enjoyment whether they're on their first playthrough or have thousands of hours invested in countless builds. Surely just about every technical detail has been discovered, debugged, and charted a long ago.

There are probably far simpler ones as well. People still talk about chess strategies and things like that all across the detail spectrum.

There is also the reality that most games produced just aren't worth that much of people's time. They may still be fun, but in a more limited capacity.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#60

Post by michaelt »

drw85 wrote: post #38

I also think this signals a change in how games are played these days. There are many players that don't want to be challenged or explore, they want to complete tasks and get rewards. Some of them don't really care that much about the actual gameplay, as long as there is a quick way to complete sets of tasks and get their rewards. Some of my friends are like this, they blast through games without looking at anything…

> There are many players that don't want to be challenged or explore

That might be true in some cases, sure.

But in recent years I've noticed a lot of games adding things like crafting and alchemy mechanics that are pretty grind-heavy to puzzle out on your own.

If I've got to brute-force recipes? Or if there are hard-won ingredients and they might get wasted or produce something useless? Or if the developers, not wanting to risk breaking the game balance, made the craftable items weak or highly situational? Can easily be Not Fun.

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